How powerful strobes do you really need for wide angle? Weight and size considerations (or my GAS journey)

[DreiFish]

I'm trying to downscale (weight and size) the camera rigs for me and my wife while maintaining full-frame picture quality. We both enjoy wide angle photography. Are smaller strobes [e.g. Inon S-220 (463g) or Seacam 60d (550g)] good enough for that, or do you need something medium-sized [Retras (878g0, Backscatter MF-2s (1130g)] or large size [Marilux Apollo 3s (1375g), OneUW 160 (1550g) Seacam 160d (1320g)]?

 

For reference, I've recently tested a whole bunch of strobes, and own/have owned Inon S-220s, Backscatter MF-2s, Retra Pro Max, OneUW 160, Marilux Apollo 3, Ikelite DS230 and Supe D-Pro. I have 2 Backscatter HF-1s on preorder. I'm looking for that goldilocks intersection between size, power, and color temperature. And maybe also price. But more on that later.

 

For reference, we're currently diving in the Red Sea and here are the rigs we're using: 

 

  

 

My rig: Nauticam Canon R5C + 8-15 Fisheye in 140mm dome + 2x Marilux Apollo 3s w/ 1/2 CTO filters

My wife's rig: Nauticam Canon R6 II + 24-50 + WWL-C + 2x Inon S-220 w/ 4600k filters + 1/4 CTO filters

 

(I've bought some 1/4, 1/2 and full CTO filters to experiment with to adjust the color temperature just right)

 

Red sea environment is great for testing as it's in some ways the most challenging for strobes. Very strong ambient light, especially in the shallows at midday. Goal -- get the smallest lights possible that still achieve good coverage and color (rich blues) in this environment.  Thought I'd share my findings so far and invite further discussion:

 

1. Strobe Power Isn't that different between Small and Large Strobes

 

On land I've measured the Backscatter MF-2 and the Marilux Apollo 3 based on lux output at 30cm, center, using a light meter.

 

Backscatter MF-2 (advertised as guide number 16) : 381 lux

Marilux Apollo 3 (advertised as guide number 44): 1179 lux

OneUW 160 (advertised 😞 1060 lux

 

Surprisingly, the difference wasn't so huge. We're talking 1.5 stops. I would expect the S-220s to test even a little bit brighter than the Backscatter MF-2, as the advertised GN is 22. 

 

Hypothesis: The power difference between the biggest strobes and the smallest ones is 1-2 stops, perhaps 3 stops at most. 

 

Even comparable figures from the same manufacturer seem to back up this hypothesis. For instance, Seacam rates the 160D as GN 16 in water, and the 60Ds as GN 8. That's only a 2 stop difference. If my hypothesis is true, it's hard to think of many situations where you really need that extra 2 stops of light output (all other factors like coverage, quality of light and color temperature being equal). I plan to put that to the test over the next week and see where the S-220s fall short for wide angle in the red sea. But so far.. not bad. Some preliminary results from the S220s (first image is at ~16m, with only the 4600k filters, second at ~10m depth, midday, but with 4600k filter + 1/4 CTO gel)

 

 

Of course, the Marilux Apollo 3s may produce richer, warmer colors. I'll try to test them side by side on the same subject. 

 

2. CTO Filters are a Cheap and Customizable Way to Adjust Color Temperature

 

My testing so far shows that most manufacturers consistently advertise their strobes as being warmer than they really are. The S-220 for example measure as 6650k without diffusers and 5400k with the Inon '4600k' filter. The Apollo 3s measure as 6500k without diffusers and 5800k with diffusers. (The only 2 strobes I've tested that are close to advertised specs are the Ikelite DS230 -- 5200k measured, 5000k advertised, and the Retra Pro Max -- 5000k measured, 4800k advertised). 

 

The good news is that it's easy to adjust with some CTO gel you can order for $8 from B&H Photo Video. For instance, the Apollo 3s + Diffuser measure 5800k. Add a 1/4 CTO filter and that's down to 4800k. With a 1/2 CTO filter, you get 4000k.  This may be a better option than buying expensive strobes or relying on manufacturer's warming filters. 

 

3. Coverage Angle and 'Quality' of Light

 

This is probably the hardest factor to measure objectively and test, without more specialized testing environment like Backscatter uses. 

 

What are your thoughts and experiences? Are there small strobes that are really good enough, if recycling times and battery capacity is a non-issue? The Seacam 60Ds seem like an interesting option, given their advertised 130 degree coverage, circular flash tubes and 4400k color temperature. Anyone have any experience with those? They're light, but mighty expensive. But if they're really only 2 stops weaker than the 160Ds, with all the same features...

 

Edited May 28 by DreiFish
Added link to CTO gel

[ChrisH]

Very interesting topic!

 

In my experience it is very hard to compare strobes and it is almost impossible to compare them based on the technical data sheet. 

And it is kind of sad that strobes tend to be a bit overlooked, given that they provide a hefty portion of the image quality for underwater shooters!

 

First, if you are only a macro shooter, the strobes don't make that much of a difference as for wide angle shooting. If you shoot a lot of wide angle, I would not compromise on the strobes. The quality of the light provided by them is really important!

 

Regarding power, I don't think it is much of an issue, if you go for the strobes you mentioned. They all should provide enough power for wide angle shots. I personally haven't had a situation where I ran out of strobe power. Most of the time I need full power on the strobes only when shooting against the sun in shallow waters. The guide number provided by the manufactures most likely doesn't tell you anything as long as you don't exactly know how it is measured. Also, it is possible to achieve a high guide number with a strobe that has cooler color temperature and a hotspot in the center, giving you a very bright, but unpleasant light. 

However power can make a difference in recycle time: if the strobe has more power and you need to use it at only 1/4 power setting, it might recycle faster that a weaker strobe that needs 1/2 power setting for the same exposure, even if the recycle time of the weaker strobe is faster at full setting compared to the more powerful strobe at full power.

 

In my experience, a circular flash tube gives the best quality of light. I have had Sea&Sea YS D1 and D2 some years ago and upgraded them to the first generation of Retra Pros. The difference was amazing and worth every penny (quality of light and built quality!). I never looked back!

 

But then, my buddies all used the Seacam 150Ds. And Seacam gave them to me for testing for a contest in Jordan. And as they are very expensive, big and heavy, I really really didn't want to like them! But yeah... didn't go all that well and I ended up buying them. The difference to the Retras was not that big as the jump from the Sea&Sea to the Retras. But I found the quality of light from the Seacam strobes better for wide angle. It is hard to describe, but they have a more "3D" look, the light and the colors are superb just right out of the cam. Everybody else I know that has tested them, does want them too 😉 that said, I would not recommend the smaller Seacam 60D version. I found the handling kind of annoying (no separate dial for mode and power!) and I don't think they can be compared to the bigger brothers (Seaflash 150D and 160D). 

 

For me, the "big" Seacams are worth the money. The size wasn't a big deal for me. Full frame Underwater setups are very big and heavy anyway. Underwater I think they are almost neutral.

 

If you have the chance, try them out!

 

However, if you don't want to pay the premium price tag (also the weight and bulk) for the last 10% in light quality, I think the Retra are the best all around strobe with the best balance of power/light quality/build quality/weight/size/price at the moment. I haven't tested the Marelux oder Backscatter though. To be fair, I personally would not buy a first generation of strobe from a new manufacturer or at least wait until the strobe has been sold a year or two, to check for reliability issues. But that might just be me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I have historically used japanese plastic made strobes.

lately sea and sea ys-d2 and previously inon z240

i actually believe that angle of view underwater is not an issue as much as power and light color

 

[Architeuthis]

Of course, and fortunately, it is individually different how people produce their photos. Whether strobe power is enough or not for me, depends not only on the type of photography (for e.g. macro any strobe will do it), but also on the camera type: when I was using Olympus MFT cameras (EM5II and EM1II), the strobes I was using (Sea&Sea YS-D2 and, later , Inon Z330) produced enough light/flash, even for WA in bright and clear waters. Now I have FF (Sony A7R5) and find myself using the Z330s, almost by "default", at full power for WA and sometimes I wished I had more light...

For me, smaller strobes would certainly not do it for WA (I have an additional Backscatter MF2 with snoot for macro)...

 

Another issue is the color temperature. I am convinced that the less correction is required in postprocessing, the better the final outcome is. Hence a strobe with color temperature to produce nice background color without much fiddling in-post is desirable for me...

When filters are used to warm up the light, one should consider that this reduces the light output (the cold part is absorbed by the filter and the rest remains)

=> Since you have the means to measure light output, it would be great if you could measure how much f-stops are filtered away by warming up the light (the more warming up, the more f-stops are expected to be filtered out).

 

I have pre-ordered two Backscatter HF-1 with filters/diffusers and hope that the quality of artificial light will improve, compared to the Z330s - but let's see, whether and how much they bring ...

 

 

Wolfgang

 

[ChrisH]

@Architeuthis: I don't now the performance of the Inon Z330, but with the Sea&Sea YS-D1/2 I almost never used them on full power (FF body), mostly on 1/2 power. I would assume that the Inons are not less powerful?

For Wide Angle shots my standard aperture ist f13, ISO during day in the Red Sea at 200, early morning or later in the day 320 or 400, to give a nice blue water color. Shutter speed as needed for the blue, most of the time more on the slow side (1/50 and slower). With these settings I have never run out of strobe power, only using full power on the strobes for shooting sunburst in shallow water (reducing ISO and closing aperture even more, so more power on the strobe needed). 

With the Seacams 150D I most of the time shoot them at 1/4 power setting.

 

A common problem is that people shoot wide angle from too far away. This will reduce strobe power a lot! The inverse square law shows up 😉

Also often people over estimate how far the strobes can reach, which is not a problem of power, but also just physics underwater. Power ist only too low if you are really close and the foreground is not bright (!) enough. If it shows reduced color, it is not a problem of power, but shot from too far away.

 

@Interceptor121 A wide beam angle is for me a key element of a strobe, as this should provide the most even and pleasant light. I don't know about the claims of the manufacturer and how reliable or comparable they are, though. But there is a significant difference in the quality of light between different strobes that is noticeable from the first time you use them underwater (for shots of coral reefs or similar). It is also necessary to learn how to position each strobe, as the beam angle varies from strobe to strobe. Positioning the Retras the same way as my previous Sea&Sea YS-D1 led to a lot of backscatter immediately. The same happened at the first test of the Seacams, it produced a ton of backscatter and theyneeded to be pulled more back than the Retras.

[Andrey Narchuk]

Really interesting topic.
This largely depends on the shooting location and your own preferences. But there are no universal answers here.
As already written, the main problem where flash power may not be enough is shallow water and backlight.
The easiest way to see your own filming history. What tone of water do you like in the photo (how hard do you like to clamp the aperture). What flash power settings have you used in the past? (how often did you lack power).

I love light photos. Fortunately, modern cameras provide a large range and preserve much more detail in the highlights. I like an open aperture (4, 5.6 maximum 8 and then flashes like Inon S-2000 work great even at half power).
In less transparent water the situation is even simpler. 
And if I need to illuminate a large object at a distance of several meters, then it’s easier to use an additional sensor-triggered flash (the same Inon 2000), which fits perfectly into the BSD pocket.

[Architeuthis]

1 hour ago, ChrisH said:

@Architeuthis: I don't now the performance of the Inon Z330, but with the Sea&Sea YS-D1/2 I almost never used them on full power (FF body), mostly on 1/2 power. I would assume that the Inons are not less powerful?

For Wide Angle shots my standard aperture ist f13, ISO during day in the Red Sea at 200, early morning or later in the day 320 or 400, to give a nice blue water color. Shutter speed as needed for the blue, most of the time more on the slow side (1/50 and slower). With these settings I have never run out of strobe power, only using full power on the strobes for shooting sunburst in shallow water (reducing ISO and closing aperture even more, so more power on the strobe needed). 

With the Seacams 150D I most of the time shoot them at 1/4 power setting.

 

The power consumption of Z330 at full power is approx. 130 Joule, I guess YS-D2 is similar...

I seldom go to f/13, most of the time lower f-numbers. I use higher shutter speeds, 1/100s and shorter to avoid motion blurr. ISO up to 800, but, if possible, (seldom) base ISO, i.e. 100...

I hate dark-blue waters that make people asking me whether I made the photo at dawn or at night (unless I take photos at dawn or in the night)... 

 

It is not just the distance, this would be easy. It is also the area covered (then you have to back up a little) and not seldom, the object itself...

On the last diving vacation it were Carribean reef sharks. They encircle the divers during the entire dive, within distance for WA flash, but seldom (maybe 1x per dive, but often not even 1x) come < 1m, so close that they touch (almost) the domeport. I needed all the power the flashes could deliver. I also would have liked to have more power, for single shots, but especially for repetitive firing at 3 or 4 photos/second, in order to get multiple photos from a pass (turned out to be impossible with Z330 at the circumstances given, just too weak)...

 

Wolfgang

 

 

 

Edited May 29 by Architeuthis

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, ChrisH said:

@Architeuthis: I don't now the performance of the Inon Z330, but with the Sea&Sea YS-D1/2 I almost never used them on full power (FF body), mostly on 1/2 power. I would assume that the Inons are not less powerful?

For Wide Angle shots my standard aperture ist f13, ISO during day in the Red Sea at 200, early morning or later in the day 320 or 400, to give a nice blue water color. Shutter speed as needed for the blue, most of the time more on the slow side (1/50 and slower). With these settings I have never run out of strobe power, only using full power on the strobes for shooting sunburst in shallow water (reducing ISO and closing aperture even more, so more power on the strobe needed). 

With the Seacams 150D I most of the time shoot them at 1/4 power setting.

 

A common problem is that people shoot wide angle from too far away. This will reduce strobe power a lot! The inverse square law shows up 😉

Also often people over estimate how far the strobes can reach, which is not a problem of power, but also just physics underwater. Power ist only too low if you are really close and the foreground is not bright (!) enough. If it shows reduced color, it is not a problem of power, but shot from too far away.

 

@Interceptor121 A wide beam angle is for me a key element of a strobe, as this should provide the most even and pleasant light. I don't know about the claims of the manufacturer and how reliable or comparable they are, though. But there is a significant difference in the quality of light between different strobes that is noticeable from the first time you use them underwater (for shots of coral reefs or similar). It is also necessary to learn how to position each strobe, as the beam angle varies from strobe to strobe. Positioning the Retras the same way as my previous Sea&Sea YS-D1 led to a lot of backscatter immediately. The same happened at the first test of the Seacams, it produced a ton of backscatter and theyneeded to be pulled more back than the Retras.

I shoot a pool wall and check intensity

a pair of sea and sea covers any lens you use except fisheye deep corners which there is no way to cover

ultimately if you get really close any strobe works

the power is for big scenes where you are two meters away it is not required if you shoot close

if your strobes are really wide you will light a lot of the water and your lens will not see it

In essence 90-100 degrees is enough 

[ChrisH]

10 minutes ago, Architeuthis said:

 

The power consumption of Z330 at full power is approx. 130 Joule, I guess YS-D2 is similar...

I seldom go to f/13, most of the time lower f-numbers. I use higher shutter speeds, 1/100s and shorter to avoid motion blurr. ISO up to 800, but, if possible, (seldom) base ISO, i.e. 100...

I hate dark-blue waters that make people asking me whether I made the photo at dawn or at night (unless I take photos at dawn or in the night)... 

 

It is not just the distance, this would be easy. It is also the area covered (then you have to back up a little) and not seldom, the object itself...

On the last diving vacation it were Carribean reef sharks. They encircle the divers during the entire dive, within distance for WA flash, but seldom (maybe 1x per dive, but often not even 1x) come < 1m, so close that they touch (almost) the domeport. I needed all the power the flashes could deliver. I also would have liked to have more power, for single shots, but especially for repetitive firing at 3 or 4 photos/second, in order to get multiple photos from a pass (turned out to be impossible with Z330 at the circumstances given, just too weak)...

 

Wolfgang

 

 

 

Yes, I see. The recycle time can be better with powerful strobes as you can turn them down. But that is up to the individual strobe and might differ depending on the model and the power setting. 

With sharks I open up my aperture, as there is usually only blue water at the edges, so I don't need corner sharpness. Bumping up the ISO will also help. The strobes gain more reach, as the sharks are not that colorful anyway it is possible to shoot them at some distance. But there is just a physical limit to the reach of light underwater and no strobe regardless of power will change that. If they don't come close enough, I just switch on my GoPro and enjoy the sharks, knowing that the pictures just wouldn't work (at least for me). It can be frustrating, but in the end there is nothing you can do about it.

 

The area covered of the strobes is in my experience not related to the power. It is more related to the beam angle, but still limited also by the inverse square law (valid in all directions).

[ChrisH]

1 minute ago, Interceptor121 said:

I shoot a pool wall and check intensity

a pair of sea and sea covers any lens you use except fisheye deep corners which there is no way to cover

ultimately if you get really close any strobe works

the power is for big scenes where you are two meters away it is not required if you shoot close

if your strobes are really wide you will light a lot of the water and your lens will not see it

In essence 90-100 degrees is enough 

But that is just a technical point of view. It doesn't say anything about the quality of light and that is what it is all about for pictures. The fall of light and the softness of the light from the strobe is in my experience much better with circular tubes and a wider beam angle. If you shoot the Sea&Sea with and without diffusors you will see what I mean.

 

Also, I have no problem lighting up the edges of fisheye shots. It ist just a matter of positioning the strobes. You can even light up a fisheye shot with just one Sea&Sea strobe, no need for two strobes. But of course, it is also a question if you really want to light up the outer edges.

 

If you are two meters away, you are too far away anyway. It won't work. Red color is already gone. You can post process the shots and get them to look ok. But they won't be as good as a much closer shot using a wider lens.

And that is exactly what I am talking about: more power won't help. It will make the foreground brighter, but can't help with color, as red is already gone.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, ChrisH said:

Yes, I see. The recycle time can be better with powerful strobes as you can turn them down. But that is up to the individual strobe and might differ depending on the model and the power setting. 

With sharks I open up my aperture, as there is usually only blue water at the edges, so I don't need corner sharpness. Bumping up the ISO will also help. The strobes gain more reach, as the sharks are not that colorful anyway it is possible to shoot them at some distance. But there is just a physical limit to the reach of light underwater and no strobe regardless of power will change that. If they don't come close enough, I just switch on my GoPro and enjoy the sharks, knowing that the pictures just wouldn't work (at least for me). It can be frustrating, but in the end there is nothing you can do about it.

 

The area covered of the strobes is in my experience not related to the power. It is more related to the beam angle, but still limited also by the inverse square law (valid in all directions).

That’s incorrect

a strobe is essentially a capacitor charged by a battery

the amount of time to charge depends on the power output

if a strobe has double the capacity of another it will take double to charge 

What differs is the efficiency of the conversion from energy to light

a strobe may have a lot of power but with poor design emit less light 

people get obsessed by charging time which depends purely on current of the batteries used and the size of the capacitor

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ChrisH said:

But that is just a technical point of view. It doesn't say anything about the quality of light and that is what it is all about for pictures. The fall of light and the softness of the light from the strobe is in my experience much better with circular tubes and a wider beam angle. If you shoot the Sea&Sea with and without diffusors you will see what I mean.

 

Also, I have no problem lighting up the edges of fisheye shots. It ist just a matter of positioning the strobes. You can even light up a fisheye shot with just one Sea&Sea strobe, no need for two strobes. But of course, it is also a question if you really want to light up the outer edges.

 

If you are two meters away, you are too far away anyway. It won't work. Red color is already gone. You can post process the shots and get them to look ok. But they won't be as good as a much closer shot using a wider lens.

And that is exactly what I am talking about: more power won't help. It will make the foreground brighter, but can't help with color, as red is already gone.

That backs up the fact angle of coverage is overrated 

in terms of quality of light the sea and sea ys-d2 were great unfortunately they all eventually die 

many other strobes are too cold or too warm I find 5200 K the perfect balance you don’t been 4600 for sure

many new strobes are in excess of 5600 that is a problem indeed

[ChrisH]

4 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

That’s incorrect

a strobe is essentially a capacitor charged by a battery

the amount of time to charge depends on the power output

if a strobe has double the capacity of another it will take double to charge 

What differs is the efficiency of the conversion from energy to light

a strobe may have a lot of power but with poor design emit less light 

people get obsessed by charging time which depends purely on current of the batteries used and the size of the capacitor

 

Well I think that is in essence the same that I wrote. It is not about comparing strobes at the same power level (1/2 or 1/4 power). It is about the amount of light you need for the shot. Some strobes will produce the needed amount of light with 1/2 setting, others at 1/4 or 1/8 setting. Whether the former or the later strobe is faster to recycle is up to the individual strobe construction and also maybe the state of the battery.

It gets even more complicated as you need to back off some strobes more than others, reducing the amount of light that reaches the subject (which is all it is about).

[ChrisH]

9 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

That backs up the fact angle of coverage is overrated 

in terms of quality of light the sea and sea ys-d2 were great unfortunately they all eventually die 

many other strobes are too cold or too warm I find 5200 K the perfect balance you don’t been 4600 for sure

many new strobes are in excess of 5600 that is a problem indeed

It is not overrated in my opinion but misunderstood. Often people compare the beam angle of strobes to the field of view of the lens and think you need a 130 degree beam angle to cover a shot with the same field of view of the lens or something similar.

 

But as you only use the outer edges of the strobe beam to avoid backscatter it is beneficial to have a wide, even beam. 

I found the quality of light from the Sea&Sea YS D1/2 with diffusors ok. But they don't hold up to the Retras or the Seacam. There is big difference and it was for me obvious the first time I used the other strobes. It also makes getting even and pleasant lighting so much easier and faster.

[Architeuthis]

3 minutes ago, ChrisH said:

I found the quality of light from the Sea&Sea YS D1/2 with diffusors ok. But they don't hold up to the Retras or the Seacam. There is big difference and it was for me obvious the first time I used the other strobes. It also makes getting even and pleasant lighting so much easier and faster.

 

Can you please specify this more precisely? Is it the color temperature? Evenness of lighting? hardness/softness of light falling in? something else?

 

Thanks, Wolfgang

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, ChrisH said:

It is not overrated in my opinion but misunderstood. Often people compare the beam angle of strobes to the field of view of the lens and think you need a 130 degree beam angle to cover a shot with the same field of view of the lens or something similar.

 

But as you only use the outer edges of the strobe beam to avoid backscatter it is beneficial to have a wide, even beam. 

I found the quality of light from the Sea&Sea YS D1/2 with diffusors ok. But they don't hold up to the Retras or the Seacam. There is big difference and it was for me obvious the first time I used the other strobes. It also makes getting even and pleasant lighting so much easier and faster.

You cannot avoid backscatter by using edges or else If there are particles your camera will see them no matter if they reflect light or not

 edges of a strobe simply have less power than the centre and less field of view 

the idea of back scatter with strobes cones from compact cameras and using a single strobe

the only way not to get backscatter is to have no particles in the water

i shoot without strobes with ambient light and still see plenty of particles because they are there and they will come in the picture 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, ChrisH said:

Well I think that is in essence the same that I wrote. It is not about comparing strobes at the same power level (1/2 or 1/4 power). It is about the amount of light you need for the shot. Some strobes will produce the needed amount of light with 1/2 setting, others at 1/4 or 1/8 setting. Whether the former or the later strobe is faster to recycle is up to the individual strobe construction and also maybe the state of the battery.

It gets even more complicated as you need to back off some strobes more than others, reducing the amount of light that reaches the subject (which is all it is about).

No it us not

a strobe of power 2 is used at half power so 1 is left in after the shot

a strobe of power 1 is used at full power 

both will take the same amount to charge because the capacitor to fill up is the same

the larger strobe will hit ready at 80% sooner and will be able to fire right away once depleted it will take twice the time 

having a large capacitor helps with burst if you can shoot at 1:4 you can take 4 shots

if instead you need full power there wont be any burst possible 

recharge time increases with power doesnt decrease at all other factors equal

There is a lot or confusion out there it seems

[ChrisH]

1 hour ago, Architeuthis said:

 

Can you please specify this more precisely? Is it the color temperature? Evenness of lighting? hardness/softness of light falling in? something else?

 

Thanks, Wolfgang

It is hard to describe. I think it is a combination of all of the above mentioned. 
Sometimes you have things that are more than the sum of their individual parts. 
It is kind of such a thing. 
It is much easier to produce a shot that just looks right on the back screen of your camera after you pressed the shutter. You can control the light better, more easy to get the subject look just right without correcting strobe positioning ten times. 
That said, the Retra and the Seacam are a little bit more prone to produce backscatter, so they need to be pulled back more than my Sea&Sea. 

Maybe I can describe it with a diffuser. I would not use the Sea&Sea without the diffuser. it is very harsh, hard light. The Retra looks better without diffuser than the Sea&Sea with diffuser. I could use the Retra without diffuser. The Seacam is more like the Retra with diffuser, just a bit wider, more even light. I don‘t really use the diffuser for the Seacam. But as I already stated, the difference between Retra and Seacam is not as big as the difference between the Sea&Sea type of strobe to the Retra with the circular flash tube. 
As I changed all my equipment to Seacam it was the logical step to change the strobes too. But I would not have made the step if they were not - for me - the best strobes that I have used or tested. 

[ChrisH]

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

You cannot avoid backscatter by using edges or else If there are particles your camera will see them no matter if they reflect light or not

 edges of a strobe simply have less power than the centre and less field of view 

the idea of back scatter with strobes cones from compact cameras and using a single strobe

the only way not to get backscatter is to have no particles in the water

i shoot without strobes with ambient light and still see plenty of particles because they are there and they will come in the picture 

It gets totally off topic, but how to avoid backscatter is the same for all types of camera and strobe setups. The principles are the same for all cameras and don‘t change if you use one or two strobes. You need to avoid lighting up the water between the camera and the subject. This is done by using the cones of the strobe light. No need to point the strobes outside but you need to vary the distance between strobe and camera in relation to the distance of camera to subject. 
Also of course you can get backsactter with natural light if the light hits the particles in a specific angle and position. But the strobe light can be controlled and if placed wrong you can end with so much backscatter that the shots get unusable. 

[ChrisH]

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

No it us not

a strobe of power 2 is used at half power so 1 is left in after the shot

a strobe of power 1 is used at full power 

both will take the same amount to charge because the capacitor to fill up is the same

the larger strobe will hit ready at 80% sooner and will be able to fire right away once depleted it will take twice the time 

having a large capacitor helps with burst if you can shoot at 1:4 you can take 4 shots

if instead you need full power there wont be any burst possible 

recharge time increases with power doesnt decrease at all other factors equal

There is a lot or confusion out there it seems

So, if I need the light from the Sea&Sea at 1/2 power, how much faster or slower would the Retra and the Seacam recycle?

[TimG]

Hey Chris

 

The more I read this, the more it makes me wonder if thinking about the technology and specifications is getting in the way.

 

How much power is "need" is very hard to define. Unless you have some esoteric requirement, the Retras and the Inons are excellent. Neither (no-ones?) strobe will light the reef. A lot comes down to using the strobes and understanding their capabilities and then playing to those strengths or recognising the weaker areas. Over my years of taking u/w pics, I've had Nikonos, Inon and Retra. And none of them have "not been good enough".  

 

The Inons and Retra have proved to be very reliable. The Retras have a terrific range of accessories to help mould a really nice quality of light in the way you might want. Secams have their own issues because of their battery arrangement but, I understand, are maybe more powerful; and there have been many threads about issues with the Sea&Seas. 

 

But if I was starting again, I'd be more concerned about the reliability of the product as much as the power output - or even the recycling time: unless, as I say, you have an unusually esoteric requirement. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Architeuthis said:

 

Can you please specify this more precisely? Is it the color temperature? Evenness of lighting? hardness/softness of light falling in? something else?

 

Thanks, Wolfgang

I overlayed retra test shots with the ys-d2 with diffuser the angle of coverage was identical 

all strobes have near 100% CRI what matters are hot spots and color temperature 

retra have no hot spots without diffuser so will be more efficient 

however if you use another strobe with a diffuser you end up in the same place but with loss of power

Diffusers or light modifiers are an important part of lighting and level the field a lot

 

[ChipBPhoto]

52 minutes ago, TimG said:

Hey Chris

 

The more I read this, the more it makes me wonder if thinking about the technology and specifications is getting in the way.

 

How much power is "need" is very hard to define. Unless you have some esoteric requirement, the Retras and the Inons are excellent. Neither (no-ones?) strobes will light the reef. A lot comes down to using the strobes and understanding their capabilities and then playing to those strengths or recognising the weaker areas. Over my years of taking u/w pics, I've had Nikonos, Inon and Retra. And none of them have "not been good enough".  

 

The Inons and Retra have proved to be very reliable. The Retras have a terrific range of accessories to help mould a really nice quality of light in the way you might want. Secams have their own issues because of their battery arrangement but, I understand, are maybe more powerful; and there have been many threads about issues with the Sea&Seas. 

 

But if I was starting again, I'd be more concerned about the reliability of the product as much as the power output - or even the recycling time: unless, as I say, you have an unusually esoteric requirement. 

 

Absolutely agree @TimG!  For me, reliability is a top consideration.  

 

Strobes, like lenses, bodies, housing, etc., are "tools."  Each has a strength / weakness and depends so much on personal taste or needs.  So long as the item is reliable and reasonably easy to use, there will be someone that will find it to be a perfectly acceptable option.  

 

Opinions and personal beliefs are just that, and not necessarily facts.  So long as the user is able to make the images they want, it is a good tool for them.

 

It's all about matching the individual needs, and possibility even constraints, with the right tool.  It is great that we can share our practical experiences to give others something to consider in their decisions.  

Edited May 29 by ChipBPhoto

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ChrisH said:

It gets totally off topic, but how to avoid backscatter is the same for all types of camera and strobe setups. The principles are the same for all cameras and don‘t change if you use one or two strobes. You need to avoid lighting up the water between the camera and the subject. This is done by using the cones of the strobe light. No need to point the strobes outside but you need to vary the distance between strobe and camera in relation to the distance of camera to subject. 
Also of course you can get backsactter with natural light if the light hits the particles in a specific angle and position. But the strobe light can be controlled and if placed wrong you can end with so much backscatter that the shots get unusable. 

No using the corners means the light with not cover the field of view of the image because you have dark areas you are reducing the particles you can see

As I said you can see particles also with ambient light and nothing will make them disappear 

if your subject is a small part of the frame you can narrow the beam and shoot from the side

the whole idea of using edges of the beam and therefore needing more power is a myth

you can easily model this using two video lights in a dark room use the edges and what you get is a small eclipse of light and a lot of dark non lit areas

sure you can use extreme forms of inward lighting for close up subjects but for big scenes this is not an option

i wrote an article on inward lighting for uwpmag but dont get confused this is not when you need to cover the frame

strobes that are too wide are a problem for close up work for subject isolation hence the beam restrictors

[ChrisH]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

Hey Chris

 

The more I read this, the more it makes me wonder if thinking about the technology and specifications is getting in the way.

 

How much power is "need" is very hard to define. Unless you have some esoteric requirement, the Retras and the Inons are excellent. Neither (no-ones?) strobes will light the reef. A lot comes down to using the strobes and understanding their capabilities and then playing to those strengths or recognising the weaker areas. Over my years of taking u/w pics, I've had Nikonos, Inon and Retra. And none of them have "not been good enough".  

 

The Inons and Retra have proved to be very reliable. The Retras have a terrific range of accessories to help mould a really nice quality of light in the way you might want. Secams have their own issues because of their battery arrangement but, I understand, are maybe more powerful; and there have been many threads about issues with the Sea&Seas. 

 

But if I was starting again, I'd be more concerned about the reliability of the product as much as the power output - or even the recycling time: unless, as I say, you have an unusually esoteric requirement. 

I absolutly agree! 

 

I don't know the technical specs of the strobes. I have no idea what the power rating, recycle time or anything else is on the Sea&Sea, Retra or the Seacams. I didn't look them up and I don't really care. I have used them and chose the strobes that suit my needs best.

And I would never recommend buying a strobe based only on the technical data provided by the manufacturer! 

 

For my shooting recycle time and power ratings don't really mater. But I have to use the strobes and see what quality of light they can bring to the table. And testing before buying would be my recommendation.

 

Regarding reliability: as I wrote before, I would never buy the first strobe of a new manufacturer, because of possible issues. Maybe wait a year or two and see if there are any issues.

I had never a problem with the Sea&Sea, they worked fine but I know their bad reputation. Also no problems with the Retras or the Seacams so far. 

But I had issues with the LED-Trigger, which seems to be also often a weak spot. With my D810 I could use the internal flash to trigger the strobes, which saved some dives. Now with the Z8 I only use sync cords (the Seacams I use also can't be triggered with optical cables, the newer version can).

 

The point I am trying to make is: for Wide Angle Shots the strobe are an essential part of the pictures you get. I would not compromise on them, if I shoot mostly wide angle. Almost all of them have enough power. But there a differences in the quality of light and there are reasons why some strobes are more expensive. If that justifies to spend more is up to a personal decision. But I get the impression that people focus on technical specs and overlook the most important thing for photography: light!