SONY A7RV - black bands on pics when shooting high speed

[pcremone]

Hi All, I have a problem with my A7RV camera. When shooting with the Sony 90mm macro at 1/250 (and sometimes at 1/200) I have often black bands showing at the top of the frame. 

The problem is showing with both a Nauticam manual trigger and  Turtle triggers, both Manual and TTL. I use Supe D-Pro and Backscatter MF-1 strobes. 

Someone is experiencing the same problems?

It doesn't seem to appear on wide angle shots . 

 

[hedonist222]

Nauticam has announced this black band with their trigger on a7rv at anything faster than 1/200.

But you shouldn't have this with the turtle. 

[shokwaav]

You've reached max flash sync speed.

 

https://digital-photography-school.com/understand-flash-sync-speed-so-you-dont-sink-your-photo-shoot/

 

It may be a combination of strobe and trigger that can't support sync speeds higher than 1/200.

[Davide DB]

A7RV max sync speed should be 1/250. 

Maybe @TURTLE-Balage may comment?

 

[Phil Rudin]

I have the A7R V and 90mm macro in a Marelux housing with both Marelux and UWTechnics triggers and no problems up to 1/250th. I have used the MF-1 and MF-2 strobes, Inon Z330, D-Pro, Marelux Apollo III and more. With Apollo set to HSS with the UWT trigger is can sync to 1/8000th and with MF-2 in HSS with UWT trigger I can get to about 1/1600th. 

 

Not addressed is that you need to use mechanical shutter for sync above about 1/180th sec. E-shutter does not sync well so be sure to turn off E-shutter and use only mechanical shutter. This is common for all cameras with E-shutter.

 

 

Edited June 19 by Phil Rudin

[hedonist222]

3 hours ago, shokwaav said:

You've reached max flash sync speed.

 

https://digital-photography-school.com/understand-flash-sync-speed-so-you-dont-sink-your-photo-shoot/

 

It may be a combination of strobe and trigger that can't support sync speeds higher than 1/200.

 

No, the A7rv and MF1 strobe can shoot up to 1/250.

 

As confirmed by Phil below. 

I know this because I'm about to procure an LED trigger and deciding between the UW Technics and Turtle non-TTL model. 

Both can sync up to 1/250.

 

22 minutes ago, Phil Rudin said:

I have the A7R V and 90mm macro in a Marelux housing with both Marelux and UWTechnics triggers and no problems up to 1/250th. I have used the MF-1 and MF-2 strobes, Inon Z330, D-Pro, Marelux Apollo III and more. With Apollo set to HSS with the UWT trigger is can sync to 1/8000th and with MF-2 in HSS with UWT trigger I can get to about 1/1600th. My guess would be trigger or issue with camera shutter curtains.

 

 

 

[DreiFish]

Perhaps below observation from Backscatter's HF-1 flash manual may help? I think it may be a setting issue on the A7R V.

 

• Note: For HSS use, Sony cameras must have the Shutter type be mechanical and e-front curtain shutter (if offered as an option) must be off. If these menu settings are not made banding may appear in the image, which will worsen with faster shutter speeds. This setting is not specific to the Hybrid Flash, this is for any Sony camera being used with a HSS compatible flash. Please see your Sony camera instruction manual for more details.

[shokwaav]

10 hours ago, hedonist222 said:

 

No, the A7rv and MF1 strobe can shoot up to 1/250.

 

As confirmed by Phil below. 

I know this because I'm about to procure an LED trigger and deciding between the UW Technics and Turtle non-TTL model. 

Both can sync up to 1/250.

 

 

I understand that on paper the A7Rv and MF1 can shoot up to 1/250.

 

However, the photos are showing the effect of what happens when you go above flash sync speed.

 

As to why this combination is not hitting 1/250... I postulate that its due to a combination of the flash and trigger.

 

9 hours ago, DreiFish said:

Perhaps below observation from Backscatter's HF-1 flash manual may help? I think it may be a setting issue on the A7R V.

 

• Note: For HSS use, Sony cameras must have the Shutter type be mechanical and e-front curtain shutter (if offered as an option) must be off. If these menu settings are not made banding may appear in the image, which will worsen with faster shutter speeds. This setting is not specific to the Hybrid Flash, this is for any Sony camera being used with a HSS compatible flash. Please see your Sony camera instruction manual for more details.

The banding seen in HSS is different from the banding seen in these photos.

They appear like this: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4324303 

[Chris Ross]

The black bands displayed on the images posted by the OP are due to flash sync limitations.   While the A7RV specifies a 1/250 flash sync speed, you may not always achieve this and you may need to read the fine print.  I'm not sure about this model, but some SONY models only achieved max sync speed when using a SONY flash.  This is likely why the Nauticam manual trigger is giving you a problem as it doesn't communicate with the flash and so doesn't get the timing right. The manual flash uses electro-mechanical contacts built into the shutter, it's Likely the SOny lash is triggered a little earlier and i's done electronically.

 

The flash triggers that allow max sync speed need to masquerade as a Sony flash and communicate with the camera correctly to achieve the specified sync speed, presumably to get the timing correct so it can achieve the full illumination.  The strobe needs to start only a few milliseconds earlier so the banded area receives illumination.

 

It may not show up on wide angle as there may be enough ambient light that the band is not seen.  The band is there only because that part of the frame receives no flash receives no light from your strobe.  The background will be bright enough to illuminate this area of the sensor.  

 

 

[pcremone]

Thanks all for the responses!

It turned out that I had the electronic front curtain set to on, now I turned it to off and it seems to perform well. 

The weird thing is that the problem was not showing always, but randomly. 

I will continue to test and hopefully it can be solved turning the e-courtain off. 

Thanks again 🙂

 

 

[hedonist222]

7 hours ago, pcremone said:

Thanks all for the responses!

It turned out that I had the electronic front curtain set to on, now I turned it to off and it seems to perform well. 

The weird thing is that the problem was not showing always, but randomly. 

I will continue to test and hopefully it can be solved turning the e-courtain off. 

Thanks again 🙂

 

 

 

Hi Pietro 

We exchanged what's app messages the day before yesterday

I was asking about the nauticam setup...

 

Serendipity! 

[Phil Rudin]

As I suggested above the problem for the OP was the result of being in E-shutter rather than Mechanical shutter. This is not an issue restricted to Sony cameras but one released to all cameras with E-shutter on or ones like the Nikon Z8 which have electronic rolling shutter and no mechanical shutter. Above 1/200th sec. the cameras rolling shutter starts to distort lines and the higher the shutter speed the worse the problem. With electronic shutter this problem can not be overcome with any type of additional flash trigger it is just a downside to using electronic shutters.

 

Going forward we will begin to see more cameras with global shutter which is electronic but has a completely different architecture that reads the entire sensor all at once rather than line by line like the electronic shutter sensor cameras. The Sony A9 III is the only global shutter camera on the market at this time and it will sync with strobes all the way to 1/80,000th sec. in camera without a special trigger. At this time the downsides are high cost $6000.00 for the body, base ISO of 250th and low MP's 24.6 for a full frame camera.

 

Also the Sony A7R V has no issues syncing at 1/250th sec. as suggested above as long as you have a proper trigger like the manual Nauticam trigger being used by the OP with his MF-1 and SUPE D-Pro strobes. Keep ing mind that these are both manual only strobes that have no TTL or HSS features. both with sync to 1/400th on the Sony A1 in full frame and to 1/500th if you switch into APS-C mode. With the Sony A1 HSS triggers are not needed to fire strobes at 1/400th and 1/500th sec. because you are not firing in HSS, instead the speed is achieved by the faster speed of the stacked  sensor and a mechanical shutter design using advanced tech that moves the shutter faster than cameras with the normal 1/200th and 1/250th speeds.

 

Example, the attached photo was shot with the Sony A1 and 90mm macro with Nauticam manual flash trigger and two Backscatter MF-1 (non-HSS) strobes at ISO500, F/16 and 1/400th sec. sync speed in full frame.

  

Edited June 20 by Phil Rudin

[TURTLE-Balage]

HI.  Sorry,, the last month was extremly busy.  

So this black line a the top is sync problem.  I never seen same problem with popular strobes, but the SUPE-D was never tested by me.  The MF-2 works perfect. 

In the past few weeks, I have been testing a few new flashes on the market, and I noticed that manufacturers do not fully test their products. The sync of the Sony trigger flash comes from the camera and is transmitted to the trigger LEDs within 1-2 microseconds, which should not cause such a problem. So, I don't think this is a trigger issue. However, I am happy to take some shots with an oscilloscope and a light transducer to measure the time between the trigger signal and the flash of any underwater flash. 🙂

Just for sample.   This is a preflash power from  Z330.