Recommandation gear EPL-10

[sacha]

Hi All,

I currently own an ikelite housing with a Nikon D750 but have unfortunately realized that it is too big for me (I only dive on travel and I tend to combine my dives with other activities). 
On top of that I hate using the optical visor underwater, I find it extremely small and I don't understand how people use this. I guess I could buy a magnified viewfinder but all the housings I have seen online are sold without one. Are all these people shooting without a viewfinder ? Sorry I'm digressing a bit here ...

Because of my budget and my needs, I have been looking into a used EPL-10. I was interested in the backscatter package but I haven't seen any used one sold where I live.

I found another one that seems to have a lot of accessories that would be relevant to me but most of those are different brands than the one sold by backscatter. I'm wondering if these make sense or not ?
 

• Close up lens : The close up lens sold with it is the Nauticam CMC. Different than the AOI one but I read a lot of good things about it, so I guess that is fine.
• Wet wide lens : It is sold with a WeeFine WFL01. I guess the biggest issue about that one is that it can cover 24mm FF equivalent but the olympus 14-42 that always seems to be the lens used on this setup is a 28mm equivalent. So you end up with a wet lens which is much bigger and heavier than the AOI one sold by backscatter for no added value. I'm not sure how their quality compares either.
• Strobes : The camera is sold with two ikelite DS51. This is the strangest part to me. It seems to me that ikelite strobe works well with Ikelite housings but that people using other housings tend to use other brands. What kind of disadvantages might I expect there ? I guess there will be no TTL but it is not clear to me if the EPL-10 can have TTL with other strobes ?
   

Please let me know what you think of this package and if you have any suggestion of parts I should swap or add if I get it. Thanks ! 

[Chris Ross]

I suspect the wetlenses would be fine, the WFL-01 says it's designed for the m43 sensor.

 

The DS-51 strobes are wire triggered as I understand it you would need to ask how they are triggering the strobes.   The AOI EPL-10 housing has a built in LED trigger and to use this you would need a optical to electronic trigger converter.  The LED trigger in the EPL-10 housing is manual only if I recall correctly and the design of the housing would make it difficult to use a third party trigger to get TTL. 

 

So with this setup you take the electric signal ex the hot shoe convert it to optical with the LED trigger then have the opto-electric converter turn it back into an electrical signal.  You need to maintain both these items plus the o-rings on the trigger cables.

 

If you definitely wanted TTL you might have to look into a housing for an EM-5 III, OM-5 or similar.  The AOI housings for those use the small accessory flash that comes with the camera to trigger and that is capable of TTL.  AOI OM system housings are here:

 

https://www.aoi-uw.com/products/housings.html

 

the AOI housings don't have a optical viewfinder installed and you need to use the Rear LED monitor.  On the topic of viewfinders, for many years I used the standard viewfinder in my Nauticam housing, you needed it right up against your mask but it was usable and you could tell if the camera had grabbed focus generally.

[humu9679]

4 hours ago, sacha said:

Hi All,

I currently own an ikelite housing with a Nikon D750 but have unfortunately realized that it is too big for me (I only dive on travel and I tend to combine my dives with other activities). 
On top of that I hate using the optical visor underwater, I find it extremely small and I don't understand how people use this. I guess I could buy a magnified viewfinder but all the housings I have seen online are sold without one. Are all these people shooting without a viewfinder ? Sorry I'm digressing a bit here ...

 

Hi @sacha. The big questions always seem to come down to 1) how obsessed are you with making photos or videos, 2) what's the least in terms of quality can you tolerate, and 3) how much money do you want to spend? I'm not familiar with the D750 or any of Nikon's DSLRs (I last used an FM, FM2, F3, F4). Many DSLRs were shit for live view on the monitor, so using the optical viewfinder was necessary. The newer mirrorless cameras have good monitors, and you can compose and shoot with these, but they are still very small.

 

5 hours ago, sacha said:

Because of my budget and my needs, I have been looking into a used EPL-10. I was interested in the backscatter package but I haven't seen any used one sold where I live.

 

The Olympus system is very good. You can make a very compact system with that, and I regret the day I sold my Olympus OM-D EM-1 mark II. The lenses are very small, and the system is quite portable.

 

5 hours ago, sacha said:

 

• Close up lens : The close up lens sold with it is the Nauticam CMC. Different than the AOI one but I read a lot of good things about it, so I guess that is fine.

 

If you're not a macro shooter you can get some magnification but not 1:1 with wet lenses like the Nauticam CMC-1 or 2. The 2 doesn't give as much magnification but is easier to shoot because it allows more working distance from your small subject. Nauticam is very good in my opinion, but there are other lenses you can look at such as Inon, AOI, Kraken. I've used the Inon 165, and stacked them, which works okay. If you love macro the Olympus 60mm is very small and very portable.

 

5 hours ago, sacha said:

 

• Wet wide lens : It is sold with a WeeFine WFL01. I guess the biggest issue about that one is that it can cover 24mm FF equivalent but the Olympus 14-42 that always seems to be the lens used on this setup is a 28mm equivalent. So you end up with a wet lens which is much bigger and heavier than the AOI one sold by Backscatter for no added value. I'm not sure how their quality compares either.

 

I don't have any personal experience with the WeeFine WFL01. It should work with the 14-42mm. I use a Nauticam WWL-1 and it works with several different lenses, including the Olympus 14-42mm. The WWL-1 and other wet lenses can be pretty heavy, yes, and require flotation offsets. The best part of taking wet lenses, though, is that your traveling kit may be less bulky. Dense like lead, but less bulky.

 

5 hours ago, sacha said:

• Strobes : The camera is sold with two ikelite DS51. This is the strangest part to me. It seems to me that ikelite strobe works well with Ikelite housings but that people using other housings tend to use other brands. What kind of disadvantages might I expect there ? I guess there will be no TTL but it is not clear to me if the EPL-10 can have TTL with other strobes ?

 

I used Ikelite for several years, and found their strobes to be pretty nice. A good amount of power with warm soft light. I did have a DS-51, but didn't like it. Strangely, it was very loud underwater. There are smaller and better strobes available now, including Backscatter's MF-2 (which can shoot TTL with Olympus cameras), Inon and Sea & Sea. The Ikelites will most likely used wired cords, but I think many photographers prefer fiber optic cables, which are durable and long-lasting despite their fragile appearance.

[sacha]

8 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

If you definitely wanted TTL you might have to look into a housing for an EM-5 III, OM-5 or similar.  The AOI housings for those use the small accessory flash that comes with the camera to trigger and that is capable of TTL.  AOI OM system housings are here:

 

https://www.aoi-uw.com/products/housings.html

 

Thank you but based on my budget I'll take what I find used so I guess I'll start without TTL. From what I read online, in a lot of situations it is still recommended to shoot without it no ?
 

8 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

the AOI housings don't have a optical viewfinder installed and you need to use the Rear LED monitor.  On the topic of viewfinders, for many years I used the standard viewfinder in my Nauticam housing, you needed it right up against your mask but it was usable and you could tell if the camera had grabbed focus generally.

I just find it very hard to compose with this poor view, and I also found it very hard to make sure my focus was right.
I also find it much harder to have an idea of my distance to the subject and I'm always worried to get too close and touch it. 
I hope that using the screen will solve these issues.

 

 

8 hours ago, humu9679 said:

 

Hi @sacha. The big questions always seem to come down to 1) how obsessed are you with making photos or videos, 2) what's the least in terms of quality can you tolerate, and 3) how much money do you want to spend? I'm not familiar with the D750 or any of Nikon's DSLRs (I last used an FM, FM2, F3, F4). Many DSLRs were shit for live view on the monitor, so using the optical viewfinder was necessary. The newer mirrorless cameras have good monitors, and you can compose and shoot with these, but they are still very small.

Videos are a plus but I don't care too much about it. It is mainly the small size which speaks to me.
Newer mirorless cameras look much smaller indeed and very good but they are unfortunately out of my budget 😕
 

[sacha]

I don't really get how the multi quote functionality works yet so starting a new answer 🙂 

 

Quote

I used Ikelite for several years, and found their strobes to be pretty nice. A good amount of power with warm soft light. I did have a DS-51, but didn't like it. Strangely, it was very loud underwater. There are smaller and better strobes available now, including Backscatter's MF-2 (which can shoot TTL with Olympus cameras), Inon and Sea & Sea. The Ikelites will most likely used wired cords, but I think many photographers prefer fiber optic cables, which are durable and long-lasting despite their fragile appearance.

 

Would the MF-2 also work for wide angles shots (I understand it would not be the ideal solution but would it work as a DS51 replacement) ?

I'm thinking of taking a video light and a strobe light with me on holidays to keep it as light as I can but still flexible.



 

[humu9679]

3 hours ago, sacha said:

I don't really get how the multi quote functionality works yet so starting a new answer 🙂 
 

 

I just repeat the quote and edit the section I want to highlight, then I repeat it.

 

3 hours ago, sacha said:

 

Would the MF-2 also work for wide angles shots (I understand it would not be the ideal solution but would it work as a DS51 replacement) ?
 

 

The MF series flashes will definitely work as replacements for the DS-51. They are triggered via fiber optics, and I have found fiber optics to be durable and long-lasting. The MF series may not be great for wide angle, but you can make it work. There are better wide angle strobes out there with good power and quality of light.

 

3 hours ago, sacha said:

I'm thinking of taking a video light and a strobe light with me on holidays to keep it as light as I can but still flexible.
 

 

The MF series flashes have pretty good focus lights, which can double as macro video lights. I think a good light kit would be an MF-2 with a Backscatter 4300 video light. Or two MF-2s, if you're mainly interested in photos.

[sacha]

So I ended up biting the bullet and buying the kit I mentioned above 🙂 Hoping to take a lot of great pictures with it !

 

On 10/3/2024 at 6:03 AM, Chris Ross said:

The DS-51 strobes are wire triggered as I understand it you would need to ask how they are triggering the strobes.   The AOI EPL-10 housing has a built in LED trigger and to use this you would need a optical to electronic trigger converter.  The LED trigger in the EPL-10 housing is manual only if I recall correctly and the design of the housing would make it difficult to use a third party trigger to get TTL. 

 

So with this setup you take the electric signal ex the hot shoe convert it to optical with the LED trigger then have the opto-electric converter turn it back into an electrical signal.  You need to maintain both these items plus the o-rings on the trigger cables.

Indeed you were right, this is coming with ikelite fiber optic convertors : https://www.ikelite.com/products/fiber-optic-converter-for-ds-strobes-3rd-gen?

 

23 hours ago, humu9679 said:

The MF series flashes have pretty good focus lights, which can double as macro video lights. I think a good light kit would be an MF-2 with a Backscatter 4300 video light. Or two MF-2s, if you're mainly interested in photos.

These backscatter 4300 look incredible. The pack I got came with Hugyfot Arius 1500 which seemed bright enough outside of the water but looking now, are only 1500 lumens.
But it seems to be impossible to find the backscatter's weight anywhere.

Now that I have the whole kit, I need to check how to make it as compact as I can. The housing and wet lenses are compact enough but unfortunately arms and strobes are just as big as for a normal DSLR 😛

Edited October 4 by sacha

[John E]

Hi Sasha, hope you like your new set-up. I previously had the EPL-10 in the AOI housing. It is a great system. If you expand it the 60mm macro lens is great and used copies easy to find. For the housing the magnifier that shades and enlarges the rear LCD also can be useful.

 

For the wet-lens, I think that one goes to 145 degrees angle of view with a 24mm so you will need to zoom in a bit to avoid vignetting at it's widest, but the AOI UWL400A, also sold as Backscatter, is 120 degree at its widest. I think the Weefine/AOI quality is probably similar. I have had a couple of wet-lens and the ones with the polycarbonate front dome need to be used very carefully. They can focus very close and despite the marketing the dome is not very very scratch resistant, so touching something easily makes a mark. Whereas normal polycarbonate dome ports can be polished, these wet lens without glass front elements have coatings so scratches can't be polished. 

 

If you want to get a smaller set up with TTL you could look out for used Inon S2000. 

[sacha]

Hi John, yeah the macro lens looks very nice ! Once I'm sure I like the set up, I will look into it 🙂 
Thanks for the warning regarding scratches, I'll make sure to pay attention ! A bit worried both on the boat and underwater to get too close to something TBH.

And thank you for the Inon S2000 recommendation, I will look into it ! 

[humu9679]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:46 AM, sacha said:

These backscatter 4300 look incredible. The pack I got came with Hugyfot Arius 1500 which seemed bright enough outside of the water but looking now, are only 1500 lumens.
But it seems to be impossible to find the backscatter's weight anywhere.

 Hi Sacha,

 

I have handled but not used the MW4300. It was roughly the size of my hand and seemed small enough to use as a focus light. These specs from Backscatter's website:

[sacha]

Thank you @humu9679 !

[Klaus]

Hi Sacha,

I recently sourced a used fisheye-dome for my epl-5 setup in an Olympus housing. AFAIK these were made by AOI and the ports are identical. If you can find a used AOI or Zen or Athena dome for a good price, I recommend getting that plus a used Lumix 8mm fisheye for wide-angle shots. You can also start off with the manual Samyang/Rokinon/Walimex 7.5 mm fisheye; it’s a compromise but I got mine for 60 € second hand.
I have now taken my dome (Athena) on a trip and this is very compact and light-weight. I have an Inon UWL-100 wetlens as well (without the class dome) but this will likely stay at home next time as it’s feels heavier than the dome+lens I have.

 

[Klaus]

This was maybe a bit terse - your wfl-01 wetlens will certainly serve you well under water and should give you about 120 degrees field of view, which is good. You can also zoom in, which can be quite helpful. But I find shooting with the dome +fisheye is a much smaller and more maneuverable, in short enjoyable, setup under water than adding the uwl-100 to my flat port. Taking the wetlens off during the dive, storing it and putting it back on later is quite difficult. So, apart from the zoom function you will be diving with a dedicated wide-angle setup - and the fisheye lets you get even closer to things, unless they swim away (I‘ve mastered sponges and starfish so far).

The nice thing about the fisheye lens is that you can also use it topside between the dives - the wfl-01 is definitely not something you will want to take on a hike. 

Thus, I recommend setting up a regular search here, on eBay, your favorite classifieds … and when a nice pen-housing size dome shows up (Inon also made one some time ago) try to get it for a good price. Then, the manual fisheyes can usually be found very cheap while a nice & affordable Lumix 8mm may require a bit more patience. 

[sacha]

On 10/6/2024 at 7:54 AM, Klaus said:

Hi Sacha,

I recently sourced a used fisheye-dome for my epl-5 setup in an Olympus housing. AFAIK these were made by AOI and the ports are identical. If you can find a used AOI or Zen or Athena dome for a good price, I recommend getting that plus a used Lumix 8mm fisheye for wide-angle shots. You can also start off with the manual Samyang/Rokinon/Walimex 7.5 mm fisheye; it’s a compromise but I got mine for 60 € second hand.
I have now taken my dome (Athena) on a trip and this is very compact and light-weight. I have an Inon UWL-100 wetlens as well (without the class dome) but this will likely stay at home next time as it’s feels heavier than the dome+lens I have.

 

Yeah the 8mm looks nice but I'll not have time to find one before my trip.
I really want to take the wet lens but the almost 2kg with the case makes it a bit hard to justify ...

BTW how do you store the wet lens ? I have a flip holder for the CMC but not sure how I will store the wide angle one.

Anyone has recommendation on small handle and arms ? I'm wondering whether I should sell the ikelites and try to find a backscatter MF. 

[Klaus]

I „only“ have the bare UWL-100 without a dome, so that is relatively compact and weight only about 700 g I think. Still, it‘s enough for not taking it off during the dive at all - so I „store“ it on the port - period. 
I also have a close-up lens for macro and that goes on a sort of flip-adapter, but mine will definitely not work for then wide-angle lens. As I said, it‘s a dedicated wide-angle setup once you put it on. Quite a good one,  but a bit unwieldy. 
Just try it out and see how you like it. There is enough time for looking at used ones after your trip and indulge in GAS before the next one. I think that is what almost everyone does on this forum…

 

[sacha]

Hi, coming back with more questions again 🙂 Thank you for all the help ! 

Any advice on using both the wide angle wet lens and a macro diopter on the same dive ? The camera came with a flip holder but I guess that this is not compatible with using the wide angle lens ?

Should I get a M67 mount option that I could put on top of the housing ? Or is a bayonet system better ? 
How do you carry a wet lens with you underwater ?

Other question, I will need some floats. Are stiX floats anything specific or is it normal foam ? Because I have some foam at home so it might be a stupid question but if it helps me not buy something else, it would be great !

[Troporobo]

4 hours ago, sacha said:

Any advice on using both the wide angle wet lens and a macro diopter on the same dive ?

Don’t try, is my advice. It’s tempting to want to shoot every possibility - I tried doing just that for a long time.  But that puts you in a mindset of looking at everything all the time in a sort of frenzy and often missing the opportunities that closer attention would have presented. Much better to decide whether macro or wide will be your objective for a given dive and making those good images while simply enjoying the view of the other, then switching it up for the next dive.  
 

As for normal foam, it will compress at depth and lose buoyancy.  Buy the Stix floats, they are cheap and last forever.  

[sacha]

Well the advice makes sense. I'm just 'worried' of going on a macro dive, seing mantas and not being able to take any pictures.

And thank you for the foam advice ! 

[humu9679]

On 10/20/2024 at 5:27 AM, sacha said:

Hi, coming back with more questions again 🙂 Thank you for all the help ! 

Any advice on using both the wide angle wet lens and a macro diopter on the same dive ? The camera came with a flip holder but I guess that this is not compatible with using the wide angle lens ?

Should I get a M67 mount option that I could put on top of the housing ? Or is a bayonet system better ? 
How do you carry a wet lens with you underwater ?

Other question, I will need some floats. Are stiX floats anything specific or is it normal foam ? Because I have some foam at home so it might be a stupid question but if it helps me not buy something else, it would be great !

 

Most wet wide lenses like the WWL-1 are unwieldy, so it's unlikely a flip diopter could accommodate it. If you do use a wet wide lens and close up lens at the same time, I would use a quick release bayonet mount, with similar mount(s) on the arms to hold the lens you're not using.

 

But  I agree with @Troporobo that trying to do both on one dive is difficult. I've tried it, and ended up destroying reef as I struggled to remove and replace lenses. Better to decide whether shooting wide or tight will work best on a particular dive. If you're planning on shooting fish portraits and smaller creatures, then the flip diopter will work fine.

 

Stix floats are not regular foam. They are treated to maintain tiny air pockets that do not collapse in water. They look cheap in photos but they're durable and you can adjust buoyancy by adding or subtracting. The "large" floats displace 96 g, and the "jumbo" floats displace 181g. One 20 cm Ultralight arm can hold three jumbos.

[Klaus]

You can‘t be prepared for everything that could possibly swim by, unless your buddy carries a separate macro set-up while you shoot wide-angle. If you find a buddy like that, let me know. 
For macro shots, I use the kit-zoom with a wet diopter on a flip adapter. This is easy to switch, definitely my most flexible option and allows for shots at a larger field of view than the dedicated macro lenses. It is a compromise for quality at both scales - kit+ diopter is not as good as dedicated macro and kit + distance is not as good as an ultra-WA setup. But I don’t sell my photographs and „normal“ people care more for the subject and composition than the slight lack of contrast and sharpness. When I‘m down with the fish-eye I like to shoot CFWA but that close-up shot of rhinophores with buttery background-bokeh won’t happen. Once you‘re under water, you make the best of it with what you have. And on my last dive, I accidentally switched the file format to small&low res, no raw, so ended up with some nice compositions at 1280x720 with heavy smoothing. 😞 There‘s more than just a lens to ruin your day.

I tell myself that a missed shot because of the wrong lens is rather a sign of better luck than anticipated for that dive. But I would voice some bad words if it wasn‘t for the regulator…

[TimG]

2 hours ago, humu9679 said:

But  I agree with @Troporobo that trying to do both on one dive is difficult. I've tried it, and ended up destroying reef as I struggled to remove and replace lenses. Better to decide whether shooting wide or tight will work best on a particular dive. If you're planning on shooting fish portraits and smaller creatures, then the flip diopter will work fine

 

Could not agree more with this. Heading underwater able to shoot anything sounds good in theory. In practice it usually ends up a mess: too much gear to sort out and juggle. But, even more importantly, I'd suggest, is that the thought process and composition decisions are so different between macro and wide-angle that getting really good images for both on one dive is very difficult. 

 

Decide what you'd like to shoot before you head underwater, based on research and what you have heard about the area; then set-up for that. Depending on what happens, you may be able to change gear/lenses etc for a second dive.

[Troporobo]

8 hours ago, sacha said:

Well the advice makes sense. I'm just 'worried' of going on a macro dive, seing mantas and not being able to take any pictures.

The best guarantee that you’ll encounter a manta or whale shark is to set up for macro!  Your dive buddies will thank you. 😅

[sacha]

Well seems to be an anonymous decision ! 
I will start without two lenses underwater and I will know soon if I regret it, thanks ! 

[sacha]

Coming with an extra question as you're all very helpful ! To pack as light as possible, I have decided to start with one strobe only. I have got a backscatter Mini Flash 1 for now.

This is what my tray and strobes look like : 

 

I'm worried of not having enough amplitude in the arm. I have seen some examples from backscatter where both arm floats are on the same side. Doesn't that make the camera float in a strange way that needs to be pushed hard with one hand ? Like this : 

 

And then one final question. It feels like the balls on my arms are smaller than the ones on the strobe and on the tray. Is this possible ? Are there different type of balls ?
If yes, is this an issue ? I feel like it then rotates easier there than in other places but it doesn't feel like it will falls off.

Thanks again ! 

[TimG]

Hey Sacha

 

I do think having two arms on the strobe is a good idea as it allows for maximum flexibility. 

 

That said, yes, you might have problems with the balance of the system if the strobe side is negatively or positively buoyant. But this is something you can play around with and you might well be able to keep your system level.

 

Really system levelling is, in my view, only an issue if it leads to stress or pain in your wrists in achieving a level image. If it does, then you need to tackle it - maybe by adding something to the non-strobe side. But all relatively easy to resolve.

 

On the ball heads, they do tend to be a standard size: 1".  If you can get a reasonable solid feel to the system, I would not worry.  If they are floppy underwater then, yes, something needs changing. It could be that using a thicker o-ring solves that problem.