Red Filter/WB with FX1 in Green water

Hi guys,

I've been shooting with the FX1 in a Light and motion housing recently, just with the standard lens. For now no lights (although I do have lights -- I wanted to see how the camera reacted in different configs before introducing the lights)

99% of my shooting is done here in california (and soon Seattle/Canada) where the water is pretty green, but we dont always get much ambient light at depth.

I took the camera out for some dives between 60 and 100 feet, and played with the red filter a bit, and a little with white balance (had to use sand to balance though as I dont yet have 3 arms)

What I am noticing is that initially with the red filter, I had left gain in auto mode, and the image quality suffered greatly for it.

When I dont use the red filter, the shots are very green and washed out. If I enable the filter and fix the gain at say zero, I get better colors but the footage comes out very dark.

Would setting white balance help with the darkness, or is it just a physical issue with getting enough light to the lens?

Obviously using the lights will help somewhat for closeup stuff, but I find that lights on the reef are quite hard to get dialed in (much better for wrecks)

Also, I got a *lot* of really red footage in the shallower water (but it looks washed out with no red filter) -- maybe this part I can correct in FCE.

Any hints/tips that anyone has to share would be gratefully received by this novice!

limyx (?),

Here is an article on Wetpixel I recently wrote on this topic. This aticle is certainly overkill (very comprehensive) for what you probably need, but i think it would be a good place to start. Give it a read and shoot some follow up questions our way.

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15730

Good luck,

shawn

Hi Limyx

You may also be using the wrong red filter. Most standard 'red filters' are for 'blue' water. Try geting a red filter for green water and that should help out a lot.

This is just a general principle for all green water filming and is not directly associated with your cam. Shawn's article is a great read for getting the most out of your set up though.

Hope this helps

Cheers, Simon

limyx,

I also shoot often in California waters. I shoot wih a Z1 in a L&M Bluefin HD housing, with HID lighs and assorted lenses.

Yes, CA waters are not as nice as the tropics, in terms of water clarity, amount of light at depth, etc.

But, you can work with it.

First off, I personally always leave the orange filter on.

I get very nice results even in green water if you follow these steps:

1) with the orange filter on (even down to 80ft or so), do a manual WB, and then, if the water still appears too green, go into the Picture Profile (PP), and change the WB shift to the left, so it starts giving you bluer water.

I usually keep a PP set up just for this purpose, so that it's already set up for this "trick".

Once you recall the PP, you can still manipulate the shutter, iris and gain manually to fine tune your exposure. Speaking of gain, I found that in low light conditions, setting the "L" gain to maximum 6dB will still give you decent results and not show any noticeable grain, at least for non-critical kind of work.

Again, you can always change the value of that "L" gain on the fly going into the Menu and choosing Gain Setup.

2) If it's just too dark even with the gain up to max 6dB and the orange filter on, the alternative is to take the orange filter off AND shoot with the lights on. If you point the lights to a subject in fore or mid-ground, that'll still give you a good image (remember to Manual WB) , with darker bluer/greener water in the background as negative space.

If it's too dark and you don't want to go for the lights, you can either take the orange filter off and still get good result if your relatively deep (e.g., 60+ft) and you're shooting siluhettes.

Or, last resort, you can always take a "mental movie" and enjoy the rest of the dive... :-)

Sometimes the conditions are just not good for shooting, period. Nothing wrong with that.

Re: shooting in shallow water and getting reddish images, remember you always need to manual WB with the orange filter on. You can make yourself an extra "bendable arm" with Locline materials (of the same kind used to hold the L&M lights) and attach a 10"x5" white plastic slate so you don't need an extra hand to hold it while you're doing he manual WB. Worse comes to worse, you can always point to the sun and WB that way.

Hope that helps to get you started, and feel free to contact me for more questions.

Nick

limyx,

 

I also shoot often in California waters. I shoot wih a Z1 in a L&M Bluefin HD housing, with HID lighs and assorted lenses.

 

Yes, CA waters are not as nice as the tropics, in terms of water clarity, amount of light at depth, etc.

But, you can work with it.

 

...

Nick

Thanks (to all) for the tips. I think one problem is definitely that WB is tricky with just two hands with the FX1 due to the inherent positioning of the controls. I will rig something up or get a buddy to hold the card and see if it improves things.

I will also take the HID's next time as I'm on a relatively small boat (this thing is a pig on a boat with 25+ divers)

I think it's going to take me a while to get used to manipulating iris/gain, but maybe setting gain to 6db will help (auto is definitely hideous!)

Once I hit 80 feet, it seems very little light is often available (esp if I am forced to point the cam down toward the bottom -- maybe there it's better not to use the red/orange filter)

regarding the type of filter -- I am just using the one built in to the L&M housing. Not sure if that's designed for blue or for green water. I have the warmcolor slates, so I will definitely use those.

One issue is that generally I dont do specific "shots" on a dive -- just video as we go, so I often dont have time to stop, adjust etc. because I have buddies that are out to get in a fun dive.

Will post some results when I get some !

Thanks (to all) for the tips. I think one problem is definitely that WB is tricky with just two hands with the FX1 due to the inherent positioning of the controls. I will rig something up or get a buddy to hold the card and see if it improves things.

 

Once I hit 80 feet, it seems very little light is often available (esp if I am forced to point the cam down toward the bottom -- maybe there it's better not to use the red/orange filter)

 

regarding the type of filter -- I am just using the one built in to the L&M housing. Not sure if that's designed for blue or for green water. I have the warmcolor slates, so I will definitely use those.

 

One issue is that generally I dont do specific "shots" on a dive -- just video as we go, so I often dont have time to stop, adjust etc. because I have buddies that are out to get in a fun dive.

Hey Limeyx,

let me know and if you want to I can post a couple of pix of the bendable arm that I use to hold the WB card attached to one of the arms of my HID lights. Other folks also may find this useful.

Re: the orange fifter, the Blufin uses a UR Pro CY orange filter (acrylic). it's designed mainly for blue water, however is you use the "manual WB and then shift to Blue" trick using the PP button on your Bluefin HD (equivalent to setting an Indoor WB), you'll get good results.

Suggestion: at depth deeper than 80ft, do not shoot towards the bottom; first of all it's something you should try to avoid anyway (not a good composition; remember, always get close and shoot up-wards), and it also doesn't allow your subeject (eg, shark, manta, ray, ect.) to really stand out.

Again, ther is nothing wrong with NOT taking the shot when the condtions are not conducive to a good shot.

Last, I of course realize the "peer pressure" when shooting while being part of a group of diviers uw, however if you want to improve your shots you will have to slow down and shoot at your own pace. They may not like it at first, BUT, when they see the results, they'll totally understand.

Good things take time, so it is for uw shots. Go down with a plan, as much as you can; stick to a few easy subjects to start, perhaps shoot them from different angles; this will open up lots of ideas and improve your shots dramatically. "Think" with editing and the TV monitor in mind as you're shooting, and try to figure out what shots (as seen on commercial uw DVDs) work well, and why.

My 5 cents...

Nick

Limeyx, white balancing won't do anything for the darkness.

To solve the problem of not enough hands I often white balance on white gaffer tape stuck to my fin, but with my Z1/Bluefin I've had good results just pointing at the sun, or the brightest part of the surface.

However even in nice clear blue water and the flip filter in, my Z1 will often refuse to white balance at depth. The problems start anywhere from around 23m down, although I can sometimes get a white balance fix if I try 2 or 3 times. Sometimes the white fin, sometimes the sun works best. As long as I've got a white balance reasonably deep (e.g. 20m) I'm not really bothered if I can't get a deeper one. I feel those nice rich oranges and reds are more important for shallower well-lit stuff or artifically lit stuff.

If you get more problems you might like to try an Expodisc in a flip arm, as Eric, Dan etc. have done.

To fix your red footage in shallow water you just need to keep manual white balancing whenever you change depth. You might consider leaving the flip filter off for the top few meters, although I always just leave mine in. Over-red footage is easy to fix when you edit. Just drop the red in colour balance.

I agree that the default maximum gain of 18dB is pretty horrible. Both grainy and noisy lines as well. Haven't tested enough yet to establish my acceptable threshold for gain.

A couple of thoughts to add to Nick's commentary:

I find the fx1/z1 tends to over compensate the manual WB with a white slate. That is, it tends to red things up too much. I have found this to be the case in crystal clear waters of kona to greeny dark waters of Monterey. To compensate, i often WB 3 to 4 meters shallower than i am shooting. Balancing off the sun tends to deliver the best results as well. I would personally recommend against "warm" slates (slates grey-blue in color) as they cause even a larger increase in red contribution when manually WBing. I am experimenting more with a cool slate (pinkish in color...i took the back of my white slate and smeered permant red marker on it:))

As far as handling the cam and slate at the same time, i don't use any fancy contraptions...simple is better IMO. I use one of two techniques:

1. Cradle the housing in my right arm with right hand reaching underneath and around so index finger is on manual wb button. Then hold slate in left hand and WB.

2. Grab left hand grip with right hand, hold card with left hand (so housing is facing across me and to the left) and press manual wb with right hand.

Since the housing is almost neutral, i can do this in a jiffy and also control distance and angle of slate at the same time.

On the gain issue, i agree with other folks. Set the gain at 6db to increase light but not cause graininess. Note: I only lock gain when conditions are dark (where auto gain is cranking to 18db). An easy way to check is to 1. Flip gain to auto and look at screen, then 2. flip to manual (set at 6db) and look at screen. The screen should appear 'darker' when gain is locked. Why, b/c in dark conditions, auto has cranked to 18db and you manual will pull down to 6db. If flipping to manual brightens the screen, stick to auto b/c it is no introducing any gain (don't want to add unneeded gain). Some folks lock gain all the time, however i only recoomend this if you set it at 0db.

Questions for Nickdiver:

I am familiar with the PP settings but have not used underwater much. To what degree does manual wb override PP settings? I.E. do you need to manual WB first then PP? If you do the other way around does it override pp?

For night diving: you can use a similar trick. Set WB to outdoor mode. Then use wB shift in PP to pull down/up the reds in the picture. I think i need to spend some more time with this:)

-Shawn

limeyx, you are getting some great advice and tips. While I don't have a lot of "green" water experience, I do have plenty of "blue". When the vis or ambient light are poor, you will want to shoot as close to your subject as possible. Forget about wide angle scenes, and concentrate more on macro shots. For MWB, I highly recommend installing an Expodisc, which is the single best accessory on my Bluefin HD. Installation instructions here: http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/expodisc-in...fin-hd-housing/ Another deep water MWB tip is to bump up the shutter to about 2000 to WB, and then return it to 50/60 for shooting. I have found this to work well in difficult situations.

Dan

Guys

You may find also that if the FX/Z1 is having a hard time at depth WBing, put the shutter, exposure and gainboost to all auto and point it at the sun.

Once you get it to WB lock the shutter and gainboost again and away you go.

Faster shutter speed to get a WB fix? That's interesting. I wonder why that would work. Would have thought the opposite if anything to get more light.

Faster shutter speed to get a WB fix? That's interesting. I wonder why that would work. Would have thought the opposite if anything to get more light.

 

----

 

Questions for Nickdiver:

I am familiar with the PP settings but have not used underwater much. To what degree does manual wb override PP settings? I.E. do you need to manual WB first then PP? If you do the other way around does it override pp?

Shawn,

re: your question on the PP and MWB, yes, to "clear up" greenish water, first manual WB on a white slate, then enter the Picture Profile mode (PP) and - leaving all key parameters the same as the current ones (iris, shutter, gain) - change the "WB Shift" so the arrow on that slider goes all the way to the LEFT, therefore making the image bluer. That'll allow you to keep most of your reds, and make the water bluer/clearer.

I've learnt this trick from Mark (in Palau) when I was recently working with him for several months over there. Small trick, but it makes a big difference.

It's basically the equivalent to MWB and then switching to "Indoor WB" (but more fine-tuned), which unfortunately is not an option with this housing.

It would have been nice for L&M to put a "three-step" switch on the bottom left side of the housing, to control the WB "three-step" lever, and assign "Indoor WB" to one of the three positions.

A lot more useful than the "three-step" lever controlling the NDL filter, in my opinion.

Wagsy,

I like the idea of "full auto - then back to full manual" when WB in difficult situations. Will need to experiment with that.

Dan,

Interesting your "shutter speed at 2000", then back to 50/60 when MWB in difficult situations.

Hard to believe though that it would work. Theoretically, it would make sense to slow down the shutter, say to 1/30th or 1/15th, or even less, just to get enough light into the lens, and then lock everything to 50/60 after MWB. Mmm... I'll have to experiment with your suggestion...

In any case, tomorrow I'll be getting two 4x4 Expodisc from B&H, one for my Bluefin HD rig and one for Mark (in Palau), who asked me to get him one for his Gates rig. Can't wait to try it out in these nice green California waters, and then in Cozumel over Xmas and SouthEast Asia sometime in Jan-March.

I'll then write up a nice report based on my uw "experiments" and findings.

Man, I love this forum!

Nick

There just has been some times when down deepish that it would not WB so I just pushed the 3 buttons to set shutter, exposure and gainboost to auto and then tried again at the sun and it would WB.

Yeh that faster shutter speed does not make sense?

I would of thought a slower speed would be the way?

O well will try it one day.

yep, fast shutter is shocking to me as well. i will try it tomorrow, i am shooting nothing but video these days.

i can't really use MWB past 40 ft, even on full auto.... just won't take (but still get better blues than using the electronic WB deeper than that) I tend to take a last mwb at 40 and then don't touch it deeper than that as i know it won't work. Mind you i leave my dB at 0 all the time...

yep, fast shutter is shocking to me as well. i will try it tomorrow, i am shooting nothing but video these days.

 

i can't really use MWB past 40 ft, even on full auto.... just won't take (but still get better blues than using the electronic WB deeper than that) I tend to take a last mwb at 40 and then don't touch it deeper than that as i know it won't work. Mind you i leave my dB at 0 all the time...

Wow, so many replies that my head is spinning!

Will take the camera out this weekend to try some of them out (but I wont be able to drag the lights along)

I talked Light and Motion when I bought the housing and they seemed pretty against the whole Expodisc business. For now, I will leave that alone.

here's my first FX1 footage (which is pretty washed out). Average 80 feet, no lights, everything on auto (including no manual WB)

http://nickambrose.com/diving/movies/catal...-rock-cdrom.mov

http://nickambrose.com/diving/movies/palos...18-2006-web.mov

Definitely both need some work.

Hey guys.

Here's a "collage" of pix ilustrating what you need to create a WB slate with bendable Locline arm to attach to your Bluefin HD. Makes MWB a snap.

After you're done MWB-ing, you can quickly reposition the WB slate + bendable arm under the housing for less drag. Used a zillion times, never fails.

Credit to my good friend and mentor Steve (Douglas); I "borrowed" his great idea a couple years ago when diving Cocos together. WB-ing has never been easier ever since! Steve's the man!

Materials:

- Locline 3/4 inch modules for the arm. These are of the same kind as those used for the L&M light arms. You can also find them in smaller size (diameter wise); I like the 3/4 inch modules because I can always use them in the future as spares, should some of those used in the light arms become too loose with time.

Notice that the arm length (and therefore number of individual Locline modules) wil vary according to your taste. I like to use about 15 modules. Makes it easy to set the slate in front of the lens, zoom in a bit to MWB, and then quickly reposition the slate + arm under the housing.

- Y splitter, by Locline.

- White plastic slate (available at Dive shops, in several sizes. This one is a 6 inch by 4 inch, which is good even in conditions with lots of current; or you can use a larger one, this way you can zoom in even less when your MWB-ing on it.

- A Locline "Mounting Elbow", that "grabs" the corner of the white slate. Make a 3/8inch hole on one of the corners of the slate, that way you'll be able to "sandwitch" tha corner of the slate between the two parts of the Locline mounting elbow. Then tighten the screw that comes with it to keep the slate nicely secured. You may wanna add some "instant" glue for a super-tight hold.

- Connect the mounting elbow + slate to one of the ends of the Locline bendable arm (15 or so lements), and attach this arm to the L&M light (HID or Halogen) arm via the Y splitter.

- Extend the White card arm in front of the lens, and now you can use your two hands to hold the camera and press the WB button. Voila!

- When done, simply bend the WB arm and tuck it under the housing (or to the side) so it doesn't create drag (see last pic).

BTW, you can find all the needed Locline materials at http://www.modularhose.com

Very fast shipping, never had a problem with them.

Hope it helps.

Nick

http://nickambrose.com/diving/movies/catal...-rock-cdrom.mov

 

http://nickambrose.com/diving/movies/palos...18-2006-web.mov

Limeyx, you're not called Nick are you?

Nick (as in Santa Barbara Nick) and Steve D, that's a wicked bit of customisation. Right up my street. Shall be putting a couple of them on the things to do list. Didn't know about Locline Y splitters.

Now just wait till you see my Bluefin battery pod guard... Bet you can hardly contain yourselves.

Nick

right.. 4 Nicks is the limit.. No more Nicks allowed to sign up....

Limeyx, you're not called Nick are you?

ulp .. yeah I figured I was possibly one Nick too many for this situation

Born in Bristol, UK, then moved to Los Angeles 10 yrs ago.