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Red Filter/WB with FX1 in Green water

Started by limeyx ·

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Red Filter/WB with FX1 in Green water

46 posts
  1. right.. 4 Nicks is the limit.. No more Nicks allowed to sign up....

     

    Yep, no more Nicks... way too many of us!

     

    Nick (Bubblevision), re: your battery pod guards, yes I think I've seen your post some time ago... may wanna go back and take another (closer) look...

     

    Also, if any of you guys outside the US (e.g., SE Asia) need some of those Locline stuff (which is hard to find often times), let me know and I may facilitate things... As you know, sometimes I buy stuff for my dear friend and colleague Mark (in Palau), so it wouldn't be the first time. Just let me know and we'll look into that.

    I know how difficult is sometimes to order stuff from overseas, particularly in those places out in the middle of nowhere.

     

    Then again, if some uw video gigs works out, I myself may be in the SE Asia / Indian Ocean area for a while, possibly starting in Feb. or so. But 'til then I'm here and I can help.

     

    Nick

  2. That's a kind offer Nick. Might even take you up on that.

     

    As for the guard, I've made a new one for the Bluefin that works really well. I'll try and post a couple of pics tomorrow.

  3. Hey Nick (Bbvsion),

     

    cool. Don't hesitate to take me up on the offer for the Locline stuff.

     

    Can't wait to see your new shade/guard for the Bluefin LCD window.

     

    Nick

  4. all the nicks seem to have scared off NickJ.... hmmmm

  5. he's busy changing his name

  6. i just gave nick j a kick in the but for not showing up to our parties any more!

  7. So sorry guys - I do really miss ya, but I'm involved in a particularly hairy company divestment, and well yes, I have no life at the moment :)

     

    I took my brand new BlueFin and FX1 - only used on one trip so far - out of their boxes the other night and just had to stroke them a little to let them know I still loved them (oops, all right all right, actually we've had a house move on top of all this, and I was just checking OK? :( )

     

    I have told my new bosses nothing will stop me fulfilling my already paid trip with Jim Abernethy next January, so that's keeping me going.

     

    Sorry for the radio silence but what I'm having to go through right now keeps me in the black so I can actually pay for the stuff I really like to do .... <_<

  8. Nick (Bubblevision),

    Thanks for the link to your ingenious guard for the battery pods. Will experiment with that, sounds like it'll be a snap to put it together. Cool!

     

    Btw, speaking of latches and guards... WARNING ABOUT BLUEFIN HD REAR PLATE LATCHES:

     

    Just when I though L&M did it right this time with the new latching mechanism on the Bluefin Z1 backplate (compared to the old 900, etc.), well my usual paranoia with leaks and latches came handy.

     

    I was diving last Sun off a boat here in Calif., I come up the ladder after I passed my Bluefin HD rig to the DM, and a few minutes later I notice - TO MY HORROR - that one of the latches on the rear plate has rotated 1/3 of a turn towards the OPEN position... Not clear when that happened, my feeling is that it may have happened when the DM put the rig on the table after the rinse tank.

     

    Luckily nothing happened, but my heart stopped for a sec.

     

    Background: I always - ALWAYS - use a a short piece of duct tape placed over the battery pods and the back plate latches on my Bluefin 900 housing. In many years of shooting, this simple trick has always worked well. I've never flooded a housing, pods, etc. (yes, of course I know I'm overdue)

    I'm also super careful when I get in the water and shoot, and when I give my rig to whoever's on the boat. But I guess you never know...

     

    After getting the new Bluefin HD, and seeing that the back plate latches have been dramatically improved upon, I thought that this time the back plate latches were 100% foolproof... And that therefore there would be no more need for the duct tape trick (to prevent kelp or people or whatever from accidentally rotate the latches).

     

    Well I guess I was wrong! After last Sunday's close call, I will keep using the "preistoric" duct-tape-over-latches trick for a long time.

    I may als call up L&M and report this problem so they're aware that their new latch system is not as infallible as we all first thought (well, at least I did).

     

    Just when I thought I could finally leave the duct tape home...

  9. Just wanted to say a huge thanks to everyone for all the hints & tips.

     

    I took the camera out for another go this weekend and got some dramatically better footage.

     

    I used no lights, hardcoded the gain to zero (I think) and used autofocus (for now) with manual WB.

     

    I do have a few further questions though:

     

    1) I am using a set of slates for WB. I forget the name, but they have white slates and also "Warm 1, Warm 2, Warm 3" etc. which get progressively bluer.

     

    The first dive, I think I WB'd on Warm1 and made no other adjustments. On import, the footage seemed to have tinges of too much red in it (hopefully I can fix in FCE).

     

    Dive 2, I used warm3, and used the picture profile trick that someone suggested, by dialing the WB all the way to the left side. This seemed to be much better.

     

    So, If I want less red in my pics do I WB to a bluer or a "less blue" slate? Or a white slate? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but I am a bit new to this.

     

    2) When I manually set the gain on the L&M bluefin/FX1. If I do it on the surface out of the housing, the LCD shows me "0Db, 6Db, 12Db" etc. when I flip the gain switch. OK so far.

     

    However, on the housing, the gain "lever" is upside down compared to the cam. And when I operate the lever, I dont seem to see the same "6db" business -- it always stays at 0Db. For my dives, I just adjusted it to the setting that seemed to give the best lighting (luckily I had set my max gain to I think 6Db so neither setting should be a disaster)

     

     

    On the upside, I got some really awesome footage of schools of thousands of blacksmiths surrounding me, and 7 mins of following a torpedo ray around -- this is going to look fantastic (by my standards anyway :wacko: when I edit it up.

     

    Thanks guys!

     

    (P.S. if anyone has any experience with Squarebox's Live Capture Plus/CatDV and wouldnt mind answering my inane questions on that subject, pls let me know!)

  10. Nick, if you use a coloured slate to white balance on, the footage will tend towards the complimentary (opposite) of that colour. Take a look at some colour wheels.. So if you want orangey footage, use a blue slate. If you want red footage, balance on something green, and so on. Underwater you're probably best off white balancing on something white when you can. You can also aim towards the sun, which isn't much different. If anything, manually white balanced footage underwater can come out too red, and I don't think I'm the only one here who's used something pinkish (in my case tape on my fins) to cool the reds down by shifting the WB towards green a little. Those warm cards you have tend to warm up footage but personally I think they're more useful topside than underwater. By dialling the WB all the way to the left you are basically fighting the fact that you're using a warm card.

     

    As for the gain, the L&M housing doesn't provide access to the gain lever (not quite sure what you're thinking of there - couldn't be confusing the ND filter lever could you?). So you have to choose a high, medium or low setting on the FX1 before you put it in the housing. You do have a button on the housing for toggling gain to be auto or manual (along with similar buttons for iris and shutter speed). If any of these are not showing on your screen then they are in auto mode and will adjust themselves to give you what Sony think is a good exposure.

     

    In the good old days (all 8 of them) when I used to have a working Z1 I tended to leave the lever on the low setting at 0dB and then at depth if things got too dark and the iris wouldn't open any more, and I was too far away for lights to work, I'd press the gain button to allow the gain to kick in and brighten things up. I think you could probably get away with more than 6dB as a maximum without too much noise/grain, but not 18dB which is pretty awful. 9dB or 12dB might be a good maximum. With picture profiles there are other gain permutations possible as well.

     

    By the way I generally left the shutter at 1/50 or 1/60 depending on if I was shooting 50i or 60i, as is fairly normal unless in very bright light.

    Edited by Nick Hope
  11. Nick, Thanks for the reply.

     

    yes, I am now suspecting that I am confusing the ND setting with the gain one!

    (now to go find out what an "nd" is)

     

    So you are essentially saying with regards to the gain options, that I can either have "auto" or manual, with manual taking whatever setting I have physically set on the camera?

     

    So if I (say) wanted to switch between 0db and 6 or 12db, then the way to do that would be to access the menu and reconfigure the "low" gain to be 0, 6 or 12 manually -- which would take some time, but would work, right?

     

    Thanks for the info on the color cards -- the blue cards are at least white on the other side.

    the final dive, I had accidentally moved WB to a setting where I either got auto or "outdoor" (I think) but since the water was pretty blue and I was only at 60-80 feet, the footage came out pretty well I think.

  12. Nick (Limex),

     

    yes, you can always change the "value" assigned to each of the 3 positions of the Gain switch on the camera by going into the Menu, select Gain setup, select the same gain switch that is currenclt "active" on your cam (e.g., L, M, or H) and assign a new value to it (e.g, 6dB, 12dB, etc.)

     

    It doesn't take me more that 10 seconds to do that, literally.

     

    It may help to "save" the Gain Setup command in the "personal menu" so it's very quick to access a any time.

     

    Last thing, Nick, NEVER - EVER shoot with the autofocus on (particularly in green -murky waters like often here in CA), at least when you're shooting WA or Medium shots. You may risk that the cam will start "hunting" for the correct focus, and in the process it'll screw up your shot because it may lock on some irrelevant stuff (e.g, pieces of kelp in the water, a small fish in a corner, etc.) instead of your main subejct.

     

    When shooting macro it is usually (although not always) ok to use autofocus, since the distance to your subject is very short, and there's plenty of light (DO use the lights when you're shooting macro, it'll make a HUGE difference; and it'll increase the depth of field significantly, since the cam will close down the iris a few stops - at 1/50th or 1/60th - , as compared to no lights).

     

    So at the beginning of your dive, one of the first things you wanna do is to LOCK the focus to manual, at about 2-3 feet. Pointing the cam to the tips of your fins and then pressing the Manual focus/focus lock button will achieve that. When you do that, you should see the Manual focus symbol in the bottom left corner of your LCD, with the distance it locked the focus at (e.g., 3ft). That means that everything from 3ft to infinity is going to be in focus, all the time (well, assuming you have enough light, etc.)

     

    When you need to reset the focus, say for a medium shot, go to auto, point to your subject, and when the cam achieves the focus on that subject, LOCK the focus.

     

    If the fish, etc. is coming towards you, at some point you'll have to rest/re-lock the focus. Presetting everything to 2 or 3 ft definitely help in this case, and it'll allow you to concentrate on framing and composition instead of focusing. Of course it the fish is getting real close to the lens (e.g., less than 1-2 ft, you may wanna quickly swich back to auto, as long as the fish fills most of your frame. The beauty of the Bluefin is that this is so easy to do, flawlessly and super smoothly, while still in the Rec mode, because of its phenomenal "smart handles" and their very intuitive layout of buttons.

     

    Again, we're just skiming the surface here, we could talk for hours about this.

    Hope that helps,

     

    Nick

  13. Nick (Lymeyx),

     

    I usually don't like to use this forum to recommend books, etc, but it does sound like you may need some firmer background in uw videography to achieve your goals.

     

    If I may suggest a great book (among the many out there), it would be "Underwater Digital Videography", by Steven Fish. It's got some awesome description of topics such as WB (with and without lights), iris control, balancing lights and ambient light, proper techniques for focusing, etc. with concrete visual examples of video frames of the same subejct taken using different settings.

    I've used it several times with some of my students in the past, highly recommend it (and no, I dont' work for him, heck I don't even know the guy).

     

    The "book" is available as a .pdf download at several sites, like

     

    http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/141360-ebook.htm

     

    Get the ebook, sit down with it for a few weeks / months, experiment with many of the suggestions in the book, and your footage will improve dramatically.

     

    Remember, YOU are in control of the cam, not viceversa.

    The LESS you use any "auto" modes (whether it's iris, WB, Gain, shutter), the BETTER your footage will look, because you will leave less and less to chance.

     

    There are times when Auto is the way to go, but for the most part it's manual you wanna work with.

     

    My five cents, as usual. :-)

     

    Nick

  14. Nick (Lymeyx),

     

    I usually don't like to use this forum to recommend books, etc, but it does sound like you may need some firmer background in uw videography to achieve your goals.

     

    If I may suggest a great book (among the many out there), it would be "Underwater Digital Videography", by Steven Fish. It's got some awesome description of topics such as WB (with and without lights), iris control, balancing lights and ambient light, proper techniques for focusing, etc. with concrete visual examples of video frames of the same subejct taken using different settings.

    I've used it several times with some of my students in the past, highly recommend it (and no, I dont' work for him, heck I don't even know the guy).

     

    The "book" is available as a .pdf download at several sites, like

     

    http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/141360-ebook.htm

     

    Get the ebook, sit down with it for a few weeks / months, experiment with many of the suggestions in the book, and your footage will improve dramatically.

     

    Remember, YOU are in control of the cam, not viceversa.

    The LESS you use any "auto" modes (whether it's iris, WB, Gain, shutter), the BETTER your footage will look, because you will leave less and less to chance.

     

    There are times when Auto is the way to go, but for the most part it's manual you wanna work with.

     

    My five cents, as usual. :-)

     

    Nick

     

    Thanks for the link. I will definitely check it out. I have been looking for a good book on the subject.

     

    The reason for the autofocus is just that I am trying to kind of play with things one at a time until I understand what they do. If I keep playing with all kinds of settings, I think I am just going to get hopelessly lost.

     

    Despite my amateurish approach I actually have collected some somewhat decent footage with the SD cam, but that was mostly on auto. On the footage I got this weekend there is about 5 seconds where the autofocs is indeed hunting, but 99% (I think) it is fine. But I definitely will try to do it on manual instead.

  15. ND = neutral density filter. On FX1 the ND filters have three settings, Off, 1, and 2. The ND filter is used when there is too much light for your camera, which underwater is usually not the case, unless diving shallow. Unless your camera has a blinking ND1 or ND2 icon in the monitor/viewfinder right under the zoom indicator, the ND filter should always be "off". The ND filter is a two element grey filter to block a certain percentage of the light, which underwater is usually not needed. You can also compensate for too much light by increasing the shutter speed, or by closing the iris (aperture) with a higher f number, depending on the effect you want. Personally, I have never used the ND filter underwater. As reccommended earlier, a good book, and even a Google search will help quite a lot. A note on shooting manual with the FX1. You have to activate and set all three of these controls, Iris (aperture), Gain, and Shutter, to be in full "Manual mode". Otherwise you will be in "Priority mode", and the the camera will automatically adjust the unactivated control for proper (what the camera determines) exposure.

    Dan

  16. Nick A, your camera is HDV. "SD" normally refers to standard definition, which means what came before HDV.

     

    Nick M puts the full-manual case very strongly, and when you're more experienced with this camera it's probably a good way to go. However as a novice it's also easy to screw things up by running everything on manual, or to get so tied up in settings that you forget to frame the shots properly and enjoy the dive.

     

    Personally I always seem to get away with auto-focus nearly all the time in the nice clear waters I dive in. HDV is so focus-critical that I don't trust my eyes anyway most of the time on that little LCD. Auto is great as long as it doesn't "hunt" because you don't have to worry about fish swimming from far to near. However if I'm filming something like mantas feeding in plankton-rich water then I do sometimes press the momentary autofocus button to lock it into manual. Also some macro shots simply need manual focus. If you're filming say a ribbon eel, the camera would likely focus on the background, so you're stuck with having to make rapid presses on your 2 manual focus buttons until it's sharp (I miss my focus dial!).

     

    For exposure you could leave the shutter speed on manual (1/50 or 1/60) and allow the iris and gain to do their own thing. On the Z1 you can slow down the response time of the exposure adjustment to smooth out the "pumping" of the the exposure that occurs when the brightness of your subject changes (see AE Response on your menus). Another thing you can do is to set a picture profile with AE Shift set to -1 or -2 to reduce chances of blow-outs (loss of detail) in your highlights (Sonys can tend to over-expose a bit). Then if you cap the maximum gain at say 12dB in the same picture profile (AGC Limit) then you can't go far wrong and you'll be less task-loaded than running everything on manual all the time.

     

    Dan is right about the ND filter, it has little use underwater. If you want to understand what it does, put the shutter and iris into manual mode and then just flick it in and out. The ND2 in particular cuts out a LOT of light. Using these filters at depth underwater is a very bad thing because you'll probably need a lot of gain to compensate (=noise/grain). But there are 2 situations where you might use it. Firstly near the surface, say if you were filming a whale shark feeding or divers decompressing. In this case your camera may flash "ND1" or "ND2", prompting you that it can't close the iris any more and it wants the filter. You could increase the shutter speed in those situations instead of flicking in the ND filter, but I've read (not personally proven yet) that too fast a shutter speed can make the video slightly steppy. Also a very small iris (F11 or F8.3) in bright light can cause diffraction and hence fuzzy focus (that's even in the camera manual!). So personally I think it's good to follow your camera's ND prompts.

     

    Another more advanced use of the ND filter is to deliberately throw the background out of focus. Small apertures give you a long depth of field, large apertures gives you a shallow depth of field (and the numbers are back-to-front... F11 is smaller than F1.6). If you've got plenty of light, then using an ND filter can force a large aperture and so throw your background more out of focus for more dramatic, "film" look. Get your head around the basics though before you start doing stuff like that.

    Edited by Nick Hope
  17. ND = neutral density filter. On FX1 the ND filters have three settings, Off, 1, and 2. The ND filter is used when there is too much light for your camera, which underwater is usually not the case, unless diving shallow. Unless your camera has a blinking ND1 or ND2 icon in the monitor/viewfinder right under the zoom indicator, the ND filter should always be "off". The ND filter is a two element grey filter to block a certain percentage of the light, which underwater is usually not needed. You can also compensate for too much light by increasing the shutter speed, or by closing the iris (aperture) with a higher f number, depending on the effect you want. Personally, I have never used the ND filter underwater. As reccommended earlier, a good book, and even a Google search will help quite a lot. A note on shooting manual with the FX1. You have to activate and set all three of these controls, Iris (aperture), Gain, and Shutter, to be in full "Manual mode". Otherwise you will be in "Priority mode", and the the camera will automatically adjust the unactivated control for proper (what the camera determines) exposure.

    Dan

     

    Thanks for the tips (I love this place). I actually could maybe have used the ND trick or the Iris on a couple of shots shooting toward the sun where the top of the frame was quite bright.

     

    i got the book the other Nick recommended and will definitely read it (the DRM was annoying but I am sure the book is great)

     

    I am definitely working toward being able to command the camera in full manual mode.

     

    Nick A, your camera is HDV. "SD" normally refers to standard definition, which means what came before HDV.

    ...

     

    Again, thanks. I definitely need to get the basics as you say.

    And agreed, it is sometimes hard to tell from the LCD if you are in focus or not.

    I've reviewed my ray footage from the weekend and 99% of it looks good

    (screenshots at http://nickambrose.com/diving/photos/linke...int-12-2-2006/)

     

    i actually have an older camera (Sony PC-350) and it is that one that I was referring to with the "SD" footage (I have about 30-40 tapes taken in auto-mode since the L&M housing only really lets you control focus)

     

    I will continue to shoot mostly HD, but this weekend my buddy took out the PC-350 and I had the FX1 and we got a total of 14 mins of an awesome torpedo ray.

  18. Lmeyx,

     

    I agree with many of the suggestions by Nick H and Dan.

     

    In some situations, it is indeed useful to set the exposure to "Auto", and as pointed out by Nick H, since Sony cams tend to overexpose when used uw, it's also a good idea to set a -1 or -2 AE through a designated picture profile.

     

    On my Z1, eg., I have two PProfiles alredy set up, when I think Auto is the way to go.

    E.g., when shooting mantas or divers or any large subject who may be on top of you one second, and to your side or below the next moment, because of fast and unpredictable movement.

    The light & contrast will change all the time, and very rapidly. In this case, manually controlling the iris in "real time", as things are unfolding, would be a hassle, and you'd risk to either overexpose a shot, or underexpose another.

     

    So I have PP1 set up so it is Auto Iris, Auto Shutter, Auto WB, 0dB max, but with -2 AE.

     

    And another setup, PP2, which Auto Iris, Auto Shutter, 6dB, -2 AE and with "WB shift" all to the left (bluest), for those "green water" situations, which often times are also a bit darker than tropical (hence the boost to 6dB instead of the usual 0dB).

     

    The nice thing about these PP setups is that, even when they're engaged, you can always override any of the basic parameters (iris, shutter, WB and gain) for a "semi-manual" control.

     

    Lmeyx, given that Sony's "owners manual" is a joke, a great resource to get a comprehansive understanding of all the functions on the Fx1/Z1 is a "must-have" DVD titled "Hands on HDV - A Complete Guide to the HVR-Z1 and HDR-FX1, available at www.handsonhdv.com. I cannot say enough good things about this DVD. Buy it, sit down with it for a few days, experiment with all the suggestions, etc. You'll have a whole new understanding of your sweet cam. Again, YOU will be creative control of the cam, not the other way round.

     

    My .05, as usual.

     

    Nick

  19. Yes, I can highly recommend the "Hands on HDV" DVD... It makes learning the Z!/FX1 real easy. To be honest, I have not even read the Sony manual since I bought the instructional DVD even before I purchased the camera itself.

     

    Nick/limeyx, (another Nick on this board... :wacko: )

    I lent mine out to Chris. If you want to borrow it (short time), please contact him. You will learn the functions of your FX1 really fast.

     

    Anders

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