edit: I'm not sure why the quoting isn't working for me, so I tried a different format.
sorry for coming to the party late and having so much to quote. Phil, Jim, you gotta let me know when a good oly thread gets going!
My background: Started with nikon on land, went to nikonos underwater, jim church sold me on an oly 3040 & L&M tetra housing. That became a 5050 in an oly housing, adding Ike DS125s and manual EV controllers. Bought an E1, rented a housing in jan 06 for truk, loved it but the E1 was slow on AF in dark water, so I held off, hoping for the replacement pro camera (E3 aka EP-1, whatever, now coming this fall. Would've bought the E1 housing had I known it would be 2 years). Now I have a big trip this october, so it's time to stop waiting. Bought a 410 and housing, didn't like the lag in live view. It's much slower than a point & shoot. Bought a 330 and housing. Found that I couldn't sell the 410 housing at a reasonable price (bought it from japan early at full price, then videodirect got into the game) so I decided to keep it and have a second rig, a pocket macro rig. Recently presented the 410 to my wife as an anniversary present "to both of us" so I didn't have to hide it in the garage anymore.
I have to say, the 410 - regardless of it's live view lag - got under my skin in a way the 330 never has. The 330 is an ugly camera (to me), designed around a crazy prism arrangement. The 410 has a lot of character and it's damn fast and responsive. It's always ready to go. It always takes a photo when you press the button. I like it.
But it's crippling by 4 year old laptop. 6 megabyte jpegs, 10 mb raw files (that aperture doesn't read yet). Man.
on to the quoting. Sorry if anything I write comes across wrong, I'm trying to add my two cents and keep this to a reasonable length, just trying to add my experience to what others have written.
When I started searching into why "A" mode was "discontinued" in newer models, as have others, apparently feedback from Oly is that they consider the x-00 and x-10 models (e.g. E300, E500, 410, 510) to be their 'budget' line, the x30 models (E-330) a "prosumer" line, and the E-x (e.g. E-1) the full "pro" line. So the E-330 is actually a slightly older model than the 410/510, but intended to be a 'better' camera and hence the A mode exclusion was more a matter of only migrating B mode "down" to the budget line, as that doesn't require an extra sensor.
....
Now comparing livemode vs. optical VF is probably a bit unfair on the E-330 itself, since the LivemodeA (heretofor LVA) does split off some of the light and makes the viewfinder a bit darker than those on dSLRs that don't have the feature, and I suspect the viewfinder itself is also a bit smaller/less optimized due to the expectation that LVA might be used instead. Some will certainly argue it's a "crutch" preventing you from going all the way to pro dSLR shooter status, but I think of it as a training wheel.
I would also say that implementing mode B is easy for oly: all they have to do is use a live-mos CCD, and they can run the CCD full time and have live view. The livemos CCD is low power and doesn't heat up and get noisy (much). So live view mode B is an easy tool to add. Mode A is not, it's a second sensor, it's a half-silvered prism and darker viewfinder, etc etc etc. No way to shoehorn it into the tiny 410/510, too.
Since there is no sensor in the optical viewfinder on the the E-410/510 the image in the viewfinder is brighter. Since the mirror needs to move to expose the sensor on the 410/510 in AF, lag time is slightly longer than with the E-330, but still faster than most if not all digicams.
I have to disagree with you, Phil. It's slower. I can't use it on moving subjects, or even nudibranchs in surge, wtih AF on. It's fine for UW landscape wide angles, nudibranchs in calm water, emergencies, shoot-and-pray situations, but it's much worse than my 5050. It's over the cliff where I'd say, I can't get used to this, i can't make this work for moving stuff. And this is coming from a guy with a long, long (dare I say succesful) career with the 5050, and old P&S with longer lag than any more recent P&S.
Turn AF off, use the AEL button to focus automatically, shoot wide angle or slow subjects, the lag is greatly reduced and is managable.
And i find the optical viewfinder perfectly acceptable, as does Phil. I did buy a nice atomic low profile mask and get my prescription in it, though. Actually, I got my computer prescription, -2.75 instead of -3.5, for closer stuff.
Although the 330's flash cannot be fully deployed in the Oly housing, it can be partially popped, enough to fool the camera and trigger slave strobes or EV controllers. RogerC has done this.
I had to jam the sensor:
http://www.rogercarlsonphotography.com/gal..._pt-e02_strobe/
So my interpretation of this is if shooting RAW, the 410 'improved' LVB doesn't really offer much advantage, so the difference between the two cameras comes back down to:
(1) if you want to use LVA (for former PnS noobs like me) vs. an OVF ('pros' who got over that crutch long ago
) for NON-stationary subjects, and
(2) the incremental improvements in IQ from the newer 410 vs. the 330.
Fair statements?
OK, it kind of sounds like you said what I think you said per my query above, although neither is perhaps as 'quick' as the competition. Fine by me; still night and day vs. a PnS.
...and apparently the E330 would work with it too per jlyle and RogerC, although it might seem a bit 'kludgey'. So rather than illustrate my ignorance by arguing it's still not really TTL as if I know what that really means in practice (since in 'manual' mode a slaved flash also turns on based on seeing the main flash, which essentially happens as fast as with FO - speed of light difference between water as transmission medium and FO isn't going to result in a significant delay time difference over such a short distance)...I've read a bit about how TTL permits the flash to 'quench' itself early or something based on the metering from the camera, which you won't get with FO or manual (I think?). But maybe my question should be more general:
IS there a significant advantage for TTL in underwater photography, especially (for my interests) wide angle? Maybe I should be bidding on all these old D200's I'm seeing on ebay regardless of whether they can be 'upgraded' to the DS200 equivalent!
Actually, don't answer this here unless you want - I don't want to hijack the thread into flash discussions and need to do a search myself.
fair statements to me.
and my strobe hack is kludgey. I never un-tape my 330, never use it on land. It's for UW only. But I am a fringe lunatic, I love my optical triggers. I can put a strobe in a wreck, I can move strobes from camera to camera on the fly, even underwater.
I have always only shot manual, full manual, camera and strobe. I get the impression that TTL is working better and better, and I think it does work well in macro, where the whole frame is about the same distance and there isn't, say, 95% blue water absorbing all strobe and 5% barracuda mirroring strobe back & burning out pixels. I am starting it wish I had TTL on my macro rig. But then, I like having options to try and use, the more the better.
The Olympus feels really solid, has LiveView (for what it's worth), a brighter OVF, better kit lenses, cheaper housable flash (FL-36), and has been tested as faster (in some areas) than the others, but has only 3-point AF, a smaller OVF, has limited processing software and the only affordable housing for it is rated to just 40m.
Today, I prefer the E-410. So let's say I go out & buy it and tomorrow I discover some small aspect about it that I don't like and find out that the 400D betters that aspect. Will I be sick?
I know I shouldn't be, because as has already been said, every one of these cameras is a cracker.
I guess the system you're entering into also has to be considered - E-410 is using the new-ish 4/3 system (no shortage of lenses in fairness, at all price-points), while Canon's EF/EF-S is well established and well respected (kit 18-55mm excepted).
60% E-410, 40% 400D. I eagerly await the next minute factor to swing me again.
Mark
You don't keep the camera forever. This is not a final lifetime decision. Get something and be happy.
You do keep the lenses longer than the body. Look carefully at the lenses. I could not be happier with my 7-14mm and my 50mm oly lenses. This is what really binds me to oly.
I've never used more than 3 AF points, and I usually only have 1 active, so I **know** what the camera is focusing on. And I move the camera. Put the AF point on the nose or the eye, hold focus, move to compose, take the shot. if I had 30 AF points, would I change the AF point rather than move the camera as I do now? no. Too much trouble.
fltekdiver,
Don't be put off by the price of the 7-14mm - it's the least favorite of my lenses. I use the 14-54mm the most and my recent trials of the 50mm have sold me on that lens.
Jim, post your recent North Carolina trip. What do you think of your 7-14 now? I could tell as soon as I saw the color of your photos what lens you had on.
The down side to use of the pop-up flash is that recycle times may not be as fast as the exetrnal strobe. Vinny has also advised me that his digican housing at times fogged from the internal heat caused by the pop-up flash.
Use dessicant! If your housing fogs it has moisture in it, and that's bad for your camera. If your housing fogs because it's getting warmer, well, think about that: you've raised the temperature of your housing. going up in temp should make less fog, you are going above the dew point... unless you have packed moisture and humidity into your camera (bad thing!) on previous dives and the heat is now distilling that moisture out of your camera onto your port (good for camera, bad for photos).
Use dessicant.
And set your strobe to manual 1/64 power, and do a test without your external strobe on. Bet you see no backscatter, even at night. Bet you don't need to block your strobe... in manual. In TTL, different story, you may be doing full dumps from the internal strobe.
But if you are using TTL, you may be better off with a wire, not a fiber optic. You stop using your internal strobe and get faster recycling. And with the fiber, you are limited by the power of your internal strobe: if a full dump from your external strobe is 100 microseconds, and your internal strobe can only fire for 25 microseconds, you will never get a dump longer than 25 ms from your external strobe and you're not getting your money's worth. It's maxxing out at 1/4 power (note that I made these times up. I'm not sure what any camera really does, which cameras this may or may not be a problem on.)
so just to let ppl know who might be reading this and thinking fogging up all the time
that is relevant to me and maybe other ppl don't have this problem
I have never fogged since I started using dessicant. My old 3040, before I used dessicant, got so much moisture in it the camera itself would fog on land. Once that started I never got all the moisture out. It never quit doing it. I sold it.
hi fltekdiver
this is prob gonna sound strange to you but i actually like the idea of using one strobe
yes, you get nice depth and contrast. But if you have 2 strobes, you can always turn one down.
A few more questions for those good enough to help
:
Olympus tech helpline are unable to tell me whether I can use two UFL-1 strobes with the E-410 via wireless fibre optics.
One - yes. Two? don't know. Anyone on here able to tell me?
They're also unable to tell me if the upright (cranked) part of this two-part bracket (
) is available separately to the bottom (flat) bracket.
IIUC, the bottom (flat) bracket attaches to the housing, the bottom of the upright (cranked) bracket attaches to this flat bracket, the top of the upright (cranked) bracket attaches to the bottom of the strobe arm(s) (
), and the top of the strobe arm attaches to the strobe(s).
I've read that using the built-in flash can cause problems with backscatter. It seems some folk blank off the built-in flash. Does this affect the function of the fibre optic triggering of the external strobes?
I assume raising the E-410's flash while it's in the housing is the same as top-side: just press the button?
How do you put it back down (when the camera's in the housing) for taking shots where you don't want to use flash?
If you've blanked off the built-in flash, can it be retracted at all?
Won't any external, fibre-optically triggered (wireless or wired) strobes
ALWAYS
fire for every shot if the built-in flash is raised?
Or can the built-in flash be defeated via a menu-selection even if it's raised?
If it can't be retracted, does the battery drain more quickly?
I've also read that the housing can fog up if the built-in flash is raised - how bad does it fog?
What fogs up - the housing itself or the glass at the front of the port?
Does it render the set-up unuseable?
Does a silica gel sachet (or 3 or 5) solve it.
Thanks for any replies,
Mark
Oly is funny about UW support. They are big on UW, but not everyone does it or knows about it.
I prefer the athena tray (great hand grips, but heavy) or an ULCS.com tray (great arms & balls) to the oly stuff.
You ought to be able to use two, just mount two optic cables. Or actually, one with no cable ought to sync off one with a cable, you may only need one cable, depending on placement, etc. Cables are ususally better.
You can turn the strobe off using the menu, through buttons. You can't retract it and don't need to.
The coldest part of the housing will fog. In a lexan housing, in cold water, the camera will be warm, the lexan will insulate it, and you'll get condensation on the cold metal buttons first. But it could spread.
Silica dessicant solves this. Get the kind that turns blue when good, pink when bad. Recharge it at 225 degrees in a toaster oven. It could also save your camera. Forget about fogging housings, fogging cameras sucks. And cameras can die from moisture:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml
if you use an external strobe it is better to blank the internal , which will reduce backscatter
except if you are shooting manual strobe, at 1/64. You can test at night with your external off, you'll probably find that you're not lighting backscatter. But that's splitting hairs.
I am currently considering getting my wife a 410, she is currently using an CL 350 and I would like to get her into a DSL. What is the battery life with active view on of the 410, how many dives? Also, compared to the CL 350, would the shutter lag be about the same in active view or shorter??
I did 3 hour-long dives with mine last weekend, live view mostly off, 314 images. 50 degree water. Not the data point you want, wish I had live view on for you, but it's something.
My wife has never before wanted to have an SLR. But I "gave" her "my" 410, oly housing, and athena ring flash, and she was pretty excited about it. It's very manageable. The hand strap on the housing is great.
The mode B live view lag on the 410 is longer than it was on my 5050, and the 5050 is longer than the cl350. I don't think you'll be happy with that amount of lag.
Phil,
Your article is very helpful and informative, thanks. I use a DSRL and my wife uses the SP 350 point and shoot. I would like to get her into using a DSRL also, but she likes the LCD screen for taking her shots. My thinking is that with the 410 she could try the viewfinder and perhaps move away from the LCD approach since it would not have the shutter lag. Is the shutter lag with the 410 about the same as a point and shoot SP 350? What TTL is available for the 410, I currently have the SP 350 hooked up with a Heinrichs-Weikamp TTL using a 5 pin Nikonos with Inon 240. Could this be moved over and used in the 410?
thanks,
Elmer
same answer, lag is longer. Especially if you have autofocus on. With autofocus on, there is a focus step in with all the mirror flips. Better to go to manual focus so you can prefocus with the AEL button and then take a fast picture. This is just like pushing the button down halfway early. Better, you can also easily do a depth of field check.
I'm afraid I just talked a bunch of people out of the 410. I didn't mean to. I really like mine. I just want to be up front about the live view so people have the right expectation. It's certainly ahead of cameras without live view.
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