Selling films...Submissions Requests...undercutting...ect

I'm in a similar situation at the moment in discussions to film for a very large production in Palau. The DP (Director of Photography) of the show has housing for an BVW790WSP and the camera (Sony Digital Betacam), trouble is he's a crap diver and underwater shooter but because he's the principle DP he gets to decide who shoots underwater. My involvement in the deal is being pushed on the executive producers by a friend who knows of my work, who knows I have the stock for their B Roll needs and the knowledge of the area, and an ability to get what they need. All of that doesn't wash with the DP. He's ranting and raving at the execs to keep it all 'in house' etc. Thats what people are up against.

 

 

Cheers,

Mark.

Well said Mark, man I have seen some crap shooters with $$$ rigs too.

It's certainly not what you know but who you know.

Anyhow I have just been invited to help shoot a 30-40 day underwater shoot on wrecks around AUS with a guy that will use a F900. I'll be taking along my useless HDV format setup to film him filming and as second camera guy. It's for an overseas network.

hahaha Wags, love the humor, great stuff, keep it coming

Hats off to ya mate. I'm not saying its a useless format though. I'm saying its a frowned upon, hardly requested format. Also, are you shooting HDV or DVCam?? This was the deal with the recent BBC shoot here. The guys were using Z1's but dialing them in to shoot DVCam. Stands up better in post and the Z shoots great DVCam. I'm thinking of shooting that full time for the rest of the time I'm gonna have this cam.

Steve, "One man's dent is another man's dream" it all depends on how fast you're traveling and how much of an impact you make when someone sticks that big break in front of ya.

It's all well and good for us to try and set the benchmark here but we are how many? Ten regular contributors? What about the other 5 billion video, of one description or another, toting divers out there who;

i) Couldn't give a toss about regulations as they are hobby shooters and given the chance wanna see their name in lights if given the chance they get to film something extraordinary!

ii) Need to feed themselves, their dog, their family so are gonna take what they can get. After all there's no union right?

iii) Don't have a clue about the damage they are doing to the integrity of those who are trying to get some kind of universal cohesion.

or

iv) Are the recognized 'big boys' of underwater imaging who couldn't give a monkeys about the rantings of a group of passionate videographers !!

I know I use harsh language guys but I speak with the realities of life embedded in my postings.

Cheers,

Mark.

who couldn't give a monkeys

 

I know I use harsh language guys..

Cheers,

Mark.

 

Yes, one more use of the monkey word and i will have to ban you...

Wags, cool gig! Can i come and film you filming him?!?!

Yes Motion Blur is one of the negatives for HDV for sure but it's so much better watching 1440/1080 instead of tiny 720/576. I can see why they would want to shoot like that though.

The new XDCAM will have a vbr up to 35mbps so that should help.

Me...I can not make a nice HD fireplace DVD with DV though.

I don't know DV or HDV mode for them yet.

Mike.....Yes...you can film Kelly filming me filming him...ha ha...

Me...I can not make a nice HD fireplace DVD with DV though.

There ya go, you hit the nail on the head. It all depends on what THEY want. Production companies cater to the biggest common denominator. Outside of the U.S and Japan maybe, just how many people are sitting at home with a wide screen HDV enabled flat panel or projector?? Not that many. That also means that if its an American project they may be sending it to partner networks in Europe who still may require that ancient 4:3, Digital Signal!! So yes, whilst its nice to have great image clarity, if that can't be diffused to the masses its a waste of 'green backs'.

Sheesh, I thought any old Monk....., Oops sorry Mike.......Oh well, no pays much attention to me anyway!! Boo 'kin Hoo .......

Cheers,

Mark.

You know this is an interesting thread for me - we have something similar going on in a still photography thread at the moment.

The thing is, as a pro photographer or videographer you don't have a right to sell your stills or video at what you and the industry think are fair rates. Just like every other business, your rates will be dictated by "the market" and there is no changing that. You can try changing the market (which is what unions are all about) or you can try to adapt to it - those are the only two choices.

Telling newbies they can't sell their stills or video at whatever rate they want to is pointless - because they ARE going to sell them at whatever rate they think they can get and is what they see as fair. If YOUR work as a pro is better then it should stand out - so you've got nothing to worry about.

What Mark is suggesting is a good thing because it raises awareness. If there WERE an underwater photo union (like above water shooters use) a lot of these problems would be solved automatically.

Cheers

James

Wags, can I come and film Mike filming you filming that other guy? Great gig.

Steve B)

Nah Steve, you got it wrong,

You're asking Mike if you can film him filming Kelly filming Wags filming the F900 shooter. But there is a problem. Whilst your planing to film him filming Kelly filming Wags filming the F900 operator you'll be forgetting that I'm filming Mike filming Kelly filming Wags filming the F900 operator so you'll have to get to the back of the line and start filming me filming Mike filming Kelly filming Wags filming the F900 operator.

Glad we could clear that up.

Cheers,

Mark.

Gee Mark, sure glad you cleared that up for me....now to keep you in focus while you're filming Mike filming Kelly filming Wags filming the F900 operator .

Steve B)

Wow, has this thread degenerated. A bunch of degenerates!

Hello all,

James mentioned something about wishing there were an underwater photo "union" of sorts. I'm not totally sure, but isn't the Editorial Photo group just such a thing? I think there are numerous uw shooters involved with this and recommend it highly. Sea Ya!

Roger

In a perfect World it would be great but it's never gonna happen. Imaging of any genre is considered an art form. Now you never hear anyone being described as a starving and struggling engineer, bus driver or meter maid do you? It's because we're trying to find a foothold in a world full of competition, talent and vision. A world where the serious players work in a freelance environment which by it's very nature is tantamount to living on a razors edge.

You're always gonna get someone undercutting, giving away or allowing free usage of both photographic and video materials. How can you stop that? You can't, pure and simple. Someone frustrated, at the and of their tether with a family or just themselves to feed is gonna sell at whatever price they can get. It's the old human survival instinct kicking in.

I guess the only thing that we as individuals can do is have an understanding of what our materials are worth and try to sell at a figure better than or if not at least matching our expectations. I really think, and I think James touched on this earlier, that images of any genre, unless groundbreaking (Great White Shark Birth category etc) have all been seen before, there's no real value on the same Trout, Whaleshark, Nudibranch shot over and over again. It doesn't matter if its been shot, black and white, color, digital at 3MP, 6MP, 9MP or 35MP, the image is the image and its the market requirements for such imagery which will dictate the price of the shot / sequence.

We can only hope that we do get that Manta Breaching, White Shark Birthing, Whaleshark Humping, Sperm Whale Humbolt Chewing shot and make enough money for our retirement, until then its just a matter of selling enough of our wares to get through this roller coaster of a ride we call life!

Cheers,

Mark.

Great, that means my footage of the sperm whale fighting a giant squid in perfect focus might be worth something. Or maybe I can give it away.;-)

Steve B)

So Mark, when are you coming to LA?

Great, that means my footage of the sperm whale fighting a giant squid in perfect focus might be worth something

Or maybe I can give it away

So Mark, when are you coming to LA?

Cheers,

Mark.

Hey Mark,

If Ken Corbin is one of those, I used to dive with him when I was on the San Diego Sheriffs Search and Recovery Dive team. Haven't seen him since I sold my dive shop in 95. Give him my regards,

Steve B)

> In a perfect World it would be great but it's never gonna happen. Imaging of any genre is considered an art form.

 

Yes, Mark, you're right, it is an art form; and I'm not just speaking of any given shot but also the program produced around that shot which certainly takes it to a different level. That's indeed where our expertise and artistic talents really come into play.

 

> I guess the only thing that we as individuals can do is have an understanding of what our materials are worth and try to sell at a figure better than or if not at least matching our expectations.

 

That's where we all stick together and form a bond amongst ourselves. The undercutters will only get one shot at this type of thing, and then usually fall by the wayside, floundering. Those of us who are good at our art, and stick to our guns will prevail in the long run. ...And along the way we also try to teach the newer shooters what the precedent should be. Many will and do listen. That is in fact how I learned...from the pros. I was also fortunte enough to have been able to parallel this philosophy to my own business (my real job) and I realized that I've done that every day in my business; ie. realize my worth and charge for it, and not lower my price just because someone got a lower estimate. My experience, my expertise, my guarantee, and the fact that I'll be around tomorrow are all worth much more than the low bid guy who won't be around tomorrow. Sea Ya!

 

Roger

Hey Roger,

Thats fantastic that you have been able to have those life experiences and been able to have carried through your dream and your worth to your professional undertakings. Always worthy is the professional courtesy and recognition for sticking to your guns, well done.

I've said pretty much all I have to say on this topic. It's one of those proverbial issues that can be discussed 'until the cow's come home' but rather than start going over all that has already been said I prefer to leave it as is.

Anyone reading this now, or in the future, will be able to make up their own mind, figure out how they see best to diffuse their imagery and hopefully find a way to peacefully co-exist with all of the other underwater imaging professionals out there. Hopefully without feeling the need to undercut, sell out or reduce what would be acceptable market standard fees for this genre of imaging to an unacceptable level.

Cheers,

Mark.

Hey hold on....

Just got back from a 7 day booze and booty watching fest in the Med

can I film someone filming someone filming another whilst filming the shooter... Sounds fun

Dive safe

DeanB

P.s where do I come in the Camdiver list of video nutters.

Well 'Steph', Oops, urm , ahhhh, Dean,

Ohh matey, you're right up there in the list.

Mike '7kbs' Veitch

Paul 'where's my dictionary' Wags

Steve 'rum runner' Douglas

Dean 'merman' Burman

Howard 'did I get the shot' Hall

Bob 'the nutters nutter' Cranston

and

Mark 'the "F" in Frogfish' Thorpe (whose dat)?

Har har.

Mark.

You told me you'd keep that quiet

Thats the last time I send you 'free' shots of me in my Bikini...

Dive safe

Dean(Steph)B

P.s..Coming over the top of Bob & Howard has always been a fantasy of mine..Cheers