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Selling films...Submissions Requests...undercutting...ect

Started by Steve Douglas ·

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Selling films...Submissions Requests...undercutting...ect

67 posts
  1. Sorry for chiming in so late on this topic, but I've been enmeshed in deadlines.

     

    You're always gonna get someone undercutting, giving away or allowing free usage of both photographic and video materials. How can you stop that? You can't, pure and simple.

     

    It may indeed be true that some people will sell their works for less than they're worth, for whatever reason. And it's certainly true that you can't get everyone, without exception, on the same page. But that's really irrelevant. I think Steve and Roger are not advocating a uniform drumbeat to which everyone marches in lockstep, or attempting to prevent people from doing what they really want to do. The idea is to offer a constructive alternative to an unorganized field of underwater video content providers who don't know much about what each other are doing business-wise and being exploited by a very organized media industry based on optimizing their bottom line for their shareholders. It's not necessary to get everyone onboard to make a big difference -- the more people who are interested in working together to help influence the market, the more leverage they will have. And the more diverse ideas they will have about how to do this -- many heads are better than one.

     

    I guess the only thing that we as individuals can do is have an understanding of what our materials are worth and try to sell at a figure better than or if not at least matching our expectations.

     

    I'll agree that having an understanding of what our materials are worth is an important part of the puzzle. But how will that happen? Each individual can do the market research for him/herself and keep up with current trends, but even if that were a practical thing for one person to do it would represent a huge waste of time spent redundantly repeating the same research. Would a better picture of market value come from a cooperative network of people sharing what they learn? After all, isn't that what forums like this are all about -- people sharing info about topics to reduce the necessity of everyone spending effort on independently learning the same lessons from scratch?

     

    I really think, and I think James touched on this earlier, that images of any genre, unless groundbreaking (Great White Shark Birth category etc) have all been seen before, there's no real value on the same Trout, Whaleshark, Nudibranch shot over and over again. It doesn't matter if its been shot, black and white, color, digital at 3MP, 6MP, 9MP or 35MP, the image is the image and its the market requirements for such imagery which will dictate the price of the shot / sequence.

     

    That's one opinion of what the market is like, but I don't think it's the last word, or even a good overview. One has only to look at what professional photographs sell to see that the same flower or fish can be done in an infinite variety of ways that appeal to different interests. And as Roger pointed out, there is also a big difference between engaging video stories and gee-whiz-wow clips -- and a different market for each.

     

    So if anyone here wants to continue to discuss possibilities of co-operative efforts to improve marketability of our work, I for one would like to hear from you. If your underwater video goal is mainly to spend excess money on equipment and vacations and to impress your friends, this topic will understandably be of less interest to you. But if you have a serious hankering to get a bigger audience for your work, to inform, to educate, and/or to have your video pay for itself, now's a good time to chime in.

     

    If there WERE an underwater photo union (like above water shooters use) a lot of these problems would be solved automatically.

     

    That's a nice thought, but unions, co-ops, and other forms of organized effort do require constant work by the people trying to make them useful. There a social form of entropy, that like it's physical counterpart, requires maintenance to prevent decay and collapse. And many of the people we would want to sell our work to aren't passionate do-gooder ocean advocates. Many of them are media suits who are representing their shareholders' interests and using their mighty resources to get the best deal they can. They can make it difficult for individuals, particularly ones who aren't already well networked in the industry, to determine the real nature of the market and to negotiate a good deal.

     

    There's not chance that all underwater videographers will band together, there are too many different motivations, areas of interest, skill levels, etc. But if a significant number of like-minded souls can find enough common ground to work cooperatively to create some market leverage, I believe it could be to all their benefit.

  2. I've just had an experience (no not the one in the bath) with selling my 'Comp' version of my Pike film..

     

    After showing the film to some local anglers and posting a few screen grabs on a Pike anglers forum the feedback was amazing. So looking at costs i.e to make the film and produce a half decent DVD with some thrown in extra's i suggested around £10 +P&P..I was told it would sell like the proverbial hot cakes. At first i didn't want to go along this path A) because it was a competiton film at only 10 mins long B) I'm pretty busy C)I'm making a longer production later in the year which would hopefully be a more seductive acqusition... But seeing how people were champing at the bit for it I'd give it a go...As soon as the £10 was mentioned I had 27 buyers out of 2300 hits...If you look at an anglers DVD collection you'd see around 20-30 films of varying length all for around £15-£25 but mostly topside stuff with short murky U/W sequences. The only difference is they are around 45mins to an hour long and feature fishermen..I could do the same but then...It would be just that..The same.

     

    I can see their point but they cannot see the hardwork, time and dedication in achieving these films...I suppose if they had their faces on screen that would be different :ninja:

     

    Rant over

     

    Dive safe

     

    DeanB

    Edited by DeanB
  3. I too received the letter from Michael Shishido in Hawaii.

     

    Hello All,

     

    Just back from travels and trying to catch up on the forum threads.

     

    Last month Michael Shishido wrote me at DiveFilm and asked about licensing the various films and podcasts showcased there, many of those films by folks active here in this forum. I gave him the standard answer I do when anyone writes me inquiring about the films on DiveFilm (which happens frequently): thank you for writing; the films all belong exclusively to the filmmakers who produced them; their emails (and websites if they have them) appear in their DiveFilm Filmmakers Page listings; please contact them individually if you are interested in learning more about their work. In the past, some of these contacts have led to commercial jobs and sales for the various filmmakers, and it has always been my approach to just refer inquiries on, usually without comment unless otherwise warranted.

     

    Since launching DiveFilm.com in 2000 as one of the first, if not the first, streaming video website dedicated solely to showcasing and encouraging short underwater videos on the internet, I've had an interesting vantage point from which to watch the evolution of internet video. And what a wild ride it's been!

     

    DiveFilm.com (and now including the two DiveFilm video podcasts produced in association with Wetpixel and available through iTunes) has been from its inception a labor-of-love online showcase of some of the better short underwater videos being produced by video pros and aspiring amateurs alike, from all over the world. It's funded completely out-of-pocket, all-volunteer, and non-commercial. (Although, we'll sometimes feature creative shorts and trailers for longer commercial projects, in keeping with our intent to showcase creatively produced short form videos if they can stand on their own as creative productions of potential interest to DiveFilm viewers.)

     

    It has long been my view that short underwater videos are an artform worthy of encouragement and support. And that one of the best ways to encourage people to care about and want to protect the underwater world is by bringing that world to their attention through art forms such as short underwater video productions. There is a potentially powerful educational aspect to such forms of visual communication.

     

    Here in San Diego, we've been very fortunate to be part of a well over 50 year history of creative underwater film production that goes back to the San Diego Bottom Scratchers and Lamar Boren (who went on to become an early Hollywood underwater cinematographer for Sea Hunt, etc.), and many others.

     

    Over the past several years the internet has become an incredibly powerful form of video content distribution, and will continue to become even more so. The effect that this can and will have artistically, educationally and politically is undeniable.

     

    It is incumbent upon those of us trying to make a living as video producers to stand firm for the monetary value of our commercial work. And when we are vying in the marketplace for jobs and sales, it is crucial that we recogize that the price we set for our commercial work will have an effect on the market for such work as a whole which will affect us all.

     

    It is also my hope that there will continue to be a place for labor-of-love showcases for underwater video creations like DiveFilm and, I might add, for non-commercial underwater film festivals like the San Diego UnderSea Film Exhibition. Places, be they virtual or brick-and-mortar, where we can go to share and enjoy those creative works of art and expression that are underwater short videos.

     

    Mary Lynn

    Edited by Mary Lynn
  4. Dean, 27 out of 2300 is pretty darn good actually..

  5. - DeanB - "P.s..Coming over the top of Bob & Howard has always been a fantasy of mine..Cheers".

     

    Uhhh, you may wanna rephrase that one !! :)

     

    - stillhope -"That's one opinion of what the market is like, but I don't think it's the last word, or even a good overview. One has only to look at what professional photographs sell to see that the same flower or fish can be done in an infinite variety of ways that appeal to different interests. And as Roger pointed out, there is also a big difference between engaging video stories and gee-whiz-wow clips -- and a different market for each".

     

    I agree with you 100 percent and if the viewing audience were all photographers / filmmakers who understood artistic interpretation and the work entailed in the realization of certain imagery then life would be sweet. Unfortunately most viewers are not in any way professionally inclined when it comes to imagery. That said its their opinion, not ours, which counts. I stand by my comment that to the mainstream viewer a clown fish is a clown fish is a clown fish. It doesn't matter that it took a massive investment in time and effort to get the shot of them creating water circulation over their eggs, for the most part people take it for granted that these images exist. I also firmly believe that the representation of an image / scene carries more weight, artistically, in the photographic World. People stop, admire and a discuss a photo, not a filmed sequence. Or at least with much less frequency than a photo.

     

    I also stand by my comment that irrespective of how many people band together, form some kind of database of information and possibly even support. I still think / know that there will be people out there blinkered in their own determination who will do whatever they need to to realize their dreams. thats human nature, pure and simple. I've listened to too many arguments about creating Utopian environments where we all drink the benefits from golden chalices, oops, is that a bubble I hear bursting? I may be jaded from those past experiences but this industry, at the business end, is as cutthroat as any department of the media World.

     

    Cheers,

    Mark.

    Edited by CamDiver
  6. I stand by my comment that to the mainstream viewer a clown fish is a clown fish is a clown fish. It doesn't matter that it took a massive investment in time and effort to get the shot of them creating water circulation over their eggs, for the most part people take it for granted that these images exist.

    If just one clip of a clownfish was all that was ever necessary to entertain the public, Finding Nemo would have been very, very short rather than a feature length film! And who would have wanted to see that same Dodge Charger every week on the Dukes of Hazzard? Or, gee, if you've seen James Bond/Harry Potter/ Angelina Jolie once, why bother watching any of their other movies?

     

    I'm not talking about just making an encyclopedia of video clips here, I'm talking about using these underwater critters and their habitat as characters and sets in movies!

     

    I also stand by my comment that irrespective of how many people band together, form some kind of database of information and possibly even support. I still think / know that there will be people out there blinkered in their own determination who will do whatever they need to to realize their dreams.

    Sure there will. I agreed to that previously. But so what? There are people who have no place in their life for recycling, but that doesn't make it pointless for the rest of us to recycle. Aesop's Bundle of Sticks story wasn't invalidated by the fact that there were other sticks who weren't in the bundle.

     

    I've listened to too many arguments about creating Utopian environments where we all drink the benefits from golden chalices, oops, is that a bubble I hear bursting? I may be jaded from those past experiences but this industry, at the business end, is as cutthroat as any department of the media World.

    Well, if you interpreted my previous message as suggesting that we had to create a perfect Utopia or else there would be no benefits, then I apologize for not writing very clearly. I was actually trying to say the opposite: the benefits will be a function of the % of underwater videographers who want to be involved in this adventure, but the function is more complex than just 1 or 0. As a matter of fact, my experience suggests that it's closer to logarithmic than linear -- in other words, significant benefit will come from and to the first small percentage of "joiners," and as more join the benefit will continue to increase, but not as rapidly. I'm sure it's more complex than that, but I'm no economist. But I sure wish I had been one of the charter members of REI !!!

     

    And as far as cutthroat goes, lots of businesses are that way -- particularly as the stakes get higher. All the more reason for some of us to work together.

  7. Alrighty then, well have fun with it, I'm sure you'll prosper.

     

    Cheers,

    Mark.

    Edited by CamDiver
  8. - DeanB - "P.s..Coming over the top of Bob & Howard has always been a fantasy of mine..Cheers".

     

    Uhhh, you may wanna rephrase that one !! :)

     

    No... I meant it as it sounded... :):):)

     

    Dive safe

     

    Dean(El weirdo)B

  9. Are we talking about members of take-that then Dean?

  10. 'Tee-hee'.. he said members...

     

    Dive safe

     

    DeanB

  11. P.s..Coming over the top of Bob & Howard has always been a fantasy of mine..Cheers

     

    hahaha! Been catching up on the forums and saw that one liner! I doubt Bob and Howard would be too happy though - well at least I don't THINK they would be?? :):)

     

    Cheers, Simon

  12. Wow, has this thread grown! Just got back from leading a group of 16 on safari for the animal migration in Kenya. Outstanding footage was gotten and all had an excellent time. Now to find someone interested in animal footage...maybe if I superimpose the cheetah over water I can enter it in some kind of mixed festival.

    Glad to be back

    Steve B)

  13. Steve,

     

    Africa will sell and sell and sell again..Just got to know how to re-package the content.. :P

     

    I mean how many bloody times can you film a Lion hunting Wilderbeast, or Cheetahs chasing Thompsons Gazelle...Never too many apparently :D

     

    I'd love to go to Africa one day..And so I will...

     

    You lucky sod

     

    Dive safe

     

    DeanB

  14. Actually captured 3 cheetah brothers stalk some wilderbeast and bring it down about 12 feet in front of me. Then the vultures came in and there was nothing left after that. From living creature to no evidence in 1hr. Got several lion kills, cubs nursing, leopards treed by 2 lionesses as they ate another wilderbeast, a croc capturing a wilderbeest which resulted in a hell of a tug of war, a major crossing of the river by the migration, cape buffalo, jackel, elephant, zebra, warthog(hard to shoot because they are so shy) and lots more. This has been my 3rd time for safari and I look forward to going again. We booked the entire camp again for the migration in 09. The Masi people are some of the warmest you can meet.

    Steve B)

    post-124-1187389446_thumb.jpg

  15. Steve,

    Look up Dan Baron's site, www.naturefootage.com he's on the lookout for this kinda stuff.

     

    Welcome back.

     

    Cheers,

    Mark.

  16. Lots of good words in this thread but not many figures apart from Roger's. Let's have some rates! My footage rates are published here and rates to hire me are here. Any comments on them would be more than welcome.

  17. Your rates look pretty standard Nick, maybe little less than some of the stock videos places. Do you sell much stock footage from your website?

     

    An advertising friend of mine was saying that a lot of big agencies were using istockphoto now they charge bugger all for clips but it they may sell more volume????

     

    Wags mentioned on a previous thread selling around 30k last year just from his website :) happy days...

  18. 30K hey :) I wish....

    Just sold another $6000 of 16.9 DV so that certainly pays for my HDV setup well and truly.

     

    Sold near 600 X 16.9 Nat Nings DVD's since March this year so thats pretty cool as well. :lol:

    Sold about 4 pics :(

     

    Once you get know it helps as well but the web site certainly was a major part. Anyone want to buy the URL ha ha.

  19. Your rates look pretty standard Nick, maybe little less than some of the stock videos places. Do you sell much stock footage from your website?

    Not a lot, just bits and pieces. A lot more enquiries than sales, which may say something about my pricing... or the current market. I really need to get more clips on there and a better search engine. Ironically my best ever invoice for licensing was when I caught a company out for using my footage in their promo. Managed 55 secs at USD 95 a sec for that one :)

     

    An advertising friend of mine was saying that a lot of big agencies were using istockphoto now they charge bugger all for clips but it they may sell more volume????

    Just checked out a couple of shark clips on there and they worked out at just a couple of dollars per second for DV, and that's royalty free, not rights managed. Cheap indeed.

  20. Not a lot, just bits and pieces. A lot more enquiries than sales, which may say something about my pricing... or the current market. I really need to get more clips on there and a better search engine. Ironically my best ever invoice for licensing was when I caught a company out for using my footage in their promo. Managed 55 secs at USD 95 a sec for that one :)

    Just checked out a couple of shark clips on there and they worked out at just a couple of dollars per second for DV, and that's royalty free, not rights managed. Cheap indeed.

     

    Hey my 007 fees are $95.01 per second... but you can buy me dinner instead. :(

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