Does anyone (not selling or sponsored by Kraken or Backscatter) have hands on experience with both the Kraken KR-S160 and the Backscatter HF-1? 

 

I am considering both these strobes as replacements for my INON 330's which are nearing end of life. 

I am most interested in quality of light for fish portraits and wide angle in blue water, ergonometrics, weight and bulk above and below water and reliability. 

I have a pair of MF-2's for macro. 

 

Thanks for your help.

I have Z330 and now HF-1s. Cannot comment on the Kraken 160s or Retras...

 

Here is a review by Alex Mustard on the Kraken 160 strobes (starting at about 13:00):

 

And here one entire video by him on the HF-1:

 

When searching for powerful WA strobes with high quality of light, i think one should also take the Seacam 160 into consideration...

Edited July 29, 20241 yr by Architeuthis

I have done multiple wide angle dives in the last few months with the Retra Pro Max, Seacam 160, Backscatter HF-1, Kraken KS160 (and Scubalamp SUPE D-Pro in December). They are all very good strobes. My preference is the Retra, but if I was forced to use one of the others I'd get by fine. I am always interested in testing gear that might expand by capabilities - but I won't test gear that I feel will restrict my photography in any way. I am not interested in wasting my dive time using lesser strobes - but the fact that I have done multiple dives with all of these - is a vote of confidence in them all.

 

The Retra is my favourite because it has the nicest quality of light, lots of power and is two strobes in one (in Lembeh (May) I shot it small with 4 batteries, while in Raja Ampat (March) and Red Sea (June) I shot it with 8. None of the other strobes here are ideal for macro - so you probably need to budget for a second set of something else if you do dedicated macro trips. People make a lot of fuss about 8 AAs, but if you get good, fast chargers - they are super easy to live with and in real world UW photography you are never waiting for them to recycle. The battery life is a big step on from previous Retras. The controls are simple and excellent. Like the Bluetooth updates and I like how you can fix and change aspects of them by connecting to phone. Wished they made a non-TTL model. I own Retra Pro Max, totally reliable. I've not tried their sticky out Lithium battery yet, but I am not planning to get them (but will try some when I have a chance).

 

The first Seacam 160s I tried (borrowed from he who shall not be named of Wetpixel) when they first came out were unreliable - and I didn't like them as a result. But I borrowed Erin's in March and had a very good experience with them. I find the light very, very similar to the Retras, just with slightly more throw and slightly less softness. The light output level is near as damn it the same as the Retras with real subjects. The batteries are nice, but that is a lot of money to pay and you need your own spares if nobody else is shooting these strobes. This is what is best about AAs - you can borrow them from everyone if you have a charging issue/flood etc. The power control was a bit annoying, without a deadstop - so you have to look at the screen all the time to know where they are set, and even worse the smaller increments are indicated by small dots on the screen which are hard to see without looking (closely). Erin's were set to 1/3 stop increments which was also annoying - but I presume this is an option. Anyway, very good strobes, but I wouldn't have them over the Retra even at the same price. Erin's were totally reliable. 

 

The Kraken KS-160 has a nice quality of light. But it does not have as much light output as the Retra and and Seacam. I know it has more stated WS-1 than the Retra - but this does not translate to light output. But they are still powerful strobes and capable of rapid firing with the Lithium batteries (although after you've shown off to your buddies - this really has limited uses in normal underwater photography, other than making everyone think you have no sensitivity towards the wellbeing of your subjects). The lithium battery packs are very nice to live with and charge straight from USB-C which is nice. I used them a few months apart, but I felt that the light and power from the "similar" SUPE D-Pro was identical. The SUPE I tried was not reliable and several of the power settings did not work. The Krakens were totally reliable. I think that they are correctly priced versus the Retras - cheaper - but a level below.  I like that they are simple with no TTL. The Krakens weak point is ergonomics. The main power knob is in whole stop settings and then your have a turny dial to adjust within stops - I could say more, but this is not nice to use. They are heavy in the water, but have good buoyancy collars.

 

The Backscatter HF-1 does not have the natural quality of light of the strobes above. But boy, does it have a lot of power. And it also has a well judged diffuser (the flat warmest one) that gives it a very decent quality of light, when attached. While still giving out more power than those above. It has excellent battery performance, which means you can shoot all day (not a big deal), but more importantly encourages you to use more of the power, more of the time. If you regularly shoot big animals/pelagics in bright conditions this would be my choice. If you shoot more close focus wide angle then you might favour one of those above with a more pleasing quality of light. The ergonomics are better than the Kraken and Seacam. They are a bit heavy in the water. They were totally reliable on my trip. They also have a video light. They are very attractively priced at present. They are my second favourite here. 

 

Alex

6 hours ago, Architeuthis said:

I have Z330 and now HF-1s. Cannot comment on the Kraken 160s or Retras...

 

Here is a review by Alex Mustard on the Kraken 160 strobes (starting at about 13:00):

 

And here one entire video by him on the HF-1:

 

When searching for powerful WA strobes with high quality of light, i think one should also take the Seacam 160 into consideration...

Thank you, @Architeuthis !  I have watched the MF-1 episode, but missed the Kraken episode.

 

Has the extra weight of the HF-1's been an issue for you compared to the Z330's?

5 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I have done multiple wide angle dives in the last few months with the Retra Pro Max, Seacam 160, Backscatter HF-1, Kraken KS160 (and Scubalamp SUPE D-Pro in December). They are all very good strobes. My preference is the Retra, but if I was forced to use one of the others I'd get by fine. I am always interested in testing gear that might expand by capabilities - but I won't test gear that I feel will restrict my photography in any way. I am not interested in wasting my dive time using lesser strobes - but the fact that I have done multiple dives with all of these - is a vote of confidence in them all.

 

The Retra is my favourite because it has the nicest quality of light, lots of power and is two strobes in one (in Lembeh (May) I shot it small with 4 batteries, while in Raja Ampat (March) and Red Sea (June) I shot it with 8. None of the other strobes here are ideal for macro - so you probably need to budget for a second set of something else if you do dedicated macro trips. People make a lot of fuss about 8 AAs, but if you get good, fast chargers - they are super easy to live with and in real world UW photography you are never waiting for them to recycle. The battery life is a big step on from previous Retras. The controls are simple and excellent. Like the Bluetooth updates and I like how you can fix and change aspects of them by connecting to phone. Wished they made a non-TTL model. I own Retra Pro Max, totally reliable. I've not tried their sticky out Lithium battery yet, but I am not planning to get them (but will try some when I have a chance).

 

The first Seacam 160s I tried (borrowed from he who shall not be named of Wetpixel) when they first came out were unreliable - and I didn't like them as a result. But I borrowed Erin's in March and had a very good experience with them. I find the light very, very similar to the Retras, just with slightly more throw and slightly less softness. The light output level is near as damn it the same as the Retras with real subjects. The batteries are nice, but that is a lot of money to pay and you need your own spares if nobody else is shooting these strobes. This is what is best about AAs - you can borrow them from everyone if you have a charging issue/flood etc. The power control was a bit annoying, without a deadstop - so you have to look at the screen all the time to know where they are set, and even worse the smaller increments are indicated by small dots on the screen which are hard to see without looking (closely). Erin's were set to 1/3 stop increments which was also annoying - but I presume this is an option. Anyway, very good strobes, but I wouldn't have them over the Retra even at the same price. Erin's were totally reliable. 

 

The Kraken KS-160 has a nice quality of light. But it does not have as much light output as the Retra and and Seacam. I know it has more stated WS-1 than the Retra - but this does not translate to light output. But they are still powerful strobes and capable of rapid firing with the Lithium batteries (although after you've shown off to your buddies - this really has limited uses in normal underwater photography, other than making everyone think you have no sensitivity towards the wellbeing of your subjects). The lithium battery packs are very nice to live with and charge straight from USB-C which is nice. I used them a few months apart, but I felt that the light and power from the "similar" SUPE D-Pro was identical. The SUPE I tried was not reliable and several of the power settings did not work. The Krakens were totally reliable. I think that they are correctly priced versus the Retras - cheaper - but a level below.  I like that they are simple with no TTL. The Krakens weak point is ergonomics. The main power knob is in whole stop settings and then your have a turny dial to adjust within stops - I could say more, but this is not nice to use. They are heavy in the water, but have good buoyancy collars.

 

The Backscatter HF-1 does not have the natural quality of light of the strobes above. But boy, does it have a lot of power. And it also has a well judged diffuser (the flat warmest one) that gives it a very decent quality of light, when attached. While still giving out more power than those above. It has excellent battery performance, which means you can shoot all day (not a big deal), but more importantly encourages you to use more of the power, more of the time. If you regularly shoot big animals/pelagics in bright conditions this would be my choice. If you shoot more close focus wide angle then you might favour one of those above with a more pleasing quality of light. The ergonomics are better than the Kraken and Seacam. They are a bit heavy in the water. They were totally reliable on my trip. They also have a video light. They are very attractively priced at present. They are my second favourite here. 

 

Alex

Thank you @Alex_Mustard.  This unbiased feedback was exactly what I was hoping for.  Extremely helpful.

8 hours ago, JayceeB said:

Thank you, @Architeuthis !  I have watched the MF-1 episode, but missed the Kraken episode.

 

Has the extra weight of the HF-1's been an issue for you compared to the Z330's?

 

I had problems with the weight on the first time: As usual (with Z330 that has little downforces), I put the floats on the inner arms, close to the camera housing. As a result, the heavy HF-1s, when pulled far back to avoid backscatter, resulted in a torque momentum turning my rig down on the backside and up on the front. Uncomfortable for the wrists...

On the next dive I put some of the floats on the outer arms, near the strobes, and everything was fine, perfect balance and no torque...

The HF-1 is bigger than Z330 and more weight to carry on land, but I am still young and have no problem lugging around all the gear...

 

I also can say that it is clearly easier to avoid backscatter with the HF-1 with flat diffusers, compared to the Z330 with dome diffusers, when a 180° fisheye lens is used...

 

I bought all available diffusers and domes. This is not only expensive, but also a hughe amount of plastic. Too much to use, even to test out, everything and also too much take everything along for a trip. The 4500 K flat diffusers and maybe another set of 5500 K flat diffusers for green water are probably enough (Alex says the flat diffusers cover already an area enough for 180° fisheye and this is what I also see). I used so far the 4500 K flat diffusers in cloudy green water and even there the color temperature is o.k. (but 5500 K may be better)...

 

 

Wolfgang

Edited July 30, 20241 yr by Architeuthis

10 hours ago, JayceeB said:

Thank you @Alex_Mustard.  This unbiased feedback was exactly what I was hoping for.  Extremely helpful.

Biased to my own photography taste

@Alex_Mustard curious about a bit more detail on the Retra Pro Max vs. Seacam 160d comparison. You said the "light [is] very, very similar to the Retras, just with slightly more throw and slightly less softness. The light output level is near as damn it the same as the Retras with real subjects."

 

You also said "The Kraken KS-160 [read also here Supe D-Pro] has a nice quality of light. But it does not have as much light output as the Retra and and Seacam." and "The Backscatter HF-1 does not have the natural quality of light of the strobes above. But boy, does it have a lot of power. And it also has a well judged diffuser (the flat warmest one) that gives it a very decent quality of light, when attached. While still giving out more power than those above."

 

This accords with my (in air) testing of the Supe D-Pro and Backscatter HF-1.

 

Retras (and thus presumably Seacams) are GN22 (according to Backscatter), Supe D-Pro is GN20, Backscatter HF-1 is GN29 with flat 4500k diffuser (GN 31 with flat 5500k diffuser). Throw in also the Ikelite DS230 in for good measure (GN 31 with no diffuser). 

 

 

Questions

 

1. How is the color temperature between the Retras and the Seacams? Any noticeable difference?

2. What about recycling times between these two? Again, any noticeable difference?

 

If not, I would say the Retras are probably the better strobe for most, especially when you consider the power vault battery pack and the all-day (or multiple day) shooting capacity it enables. The Seacams remain the better option if electrical sync connections and their more accurate TTL modes are important. Or if you have a use case for the stroboscopic mode I guess.

19 hours ago, DreiFish said:

@Alex_Mustard curious about a bit more detail on the Retra Pro Max vs. Seacam 160d comparison. You said the "light [is] very, very similar to the Retras, just with slightly more throw and slightly less softness. The light output level is near as damn it the same as the Retras with real subjects."

Questions

 

1. How is the color temperature between the Retras and the Seacams? Any noticeable difference?

2. What about recycling times between these two? Again, any noticeable difference?

 

The quick answers are:

1) No. I used the same camera WB for both. But I didn't do detailed testing - I just went out and shot.

2) No. But on the reef, reviewing between shots, I wasn't really shooting fast, I was getting compositions right, reviewing my shot, adjusting when needed. https://www.instagram.com/p/C5rH6q9Nqqv/

 

Longer answers for others, like OP, interested in these things. 

I wasn't doing an official review, but was testing for my own interest - so I didn't take notes or do specific comparison shots. That said I am very familiar with what exposure my normal settings and flash powers give, so I immediate notice the differences of different gear. I am lucky that I have access to all the good gear and I would always swap to better gear when it comes to market - so I always try and try good products.

 

Anyway, I last used the Seacams back to back with the Retras when I was in Misool in March. Although that is not that long ago, I've done over 100 dives this then (with others strobes), so I don't remember all the details. But I clearly remember shooting the same settings with each (both power and exposure settings and using the same white balance I normally use - being a Sony user I shoot K WB mostly). The difference between them in light was very small - and both are very much to my taste. In back to back testing you might see a difference, but shooting real world subjects they give very similar light at the same power settings.

 

Both recycle fine. But neither is as instant as the lithium powered strobes are at the highest powers. I don't remember ever waiting on either strobe (although I was shooting at a normal pace, composing carefully, reviewing etc - see video link above).

 

As a general comment (for the benefit of others following), while recycling time is an easy stat to measure, I don't believe it is important for almost all UW photography. We usually review between shooting, it is not as if we have a (different) perfect photo opportunity several times each second. And I think taking a moment to carefully compose etc, is more valuable than spraying off extra frames. Most things in the ocean do not move super fast. There are not normally fast moving elements likes a bird's wings or eye-lids blinks which make or break a composition a nature composition on land. 

 

When I first got my Nikon D4 (in 2013, I think) I remember shooting mandarinffish in Lembeh one evening. I set the camera to higher ISO and shot 10 frames per second with my Inon Z240 strobes on a lower power. On that dive I had several hundred shots of mandarinffish pairs, I think over 90 in focus where their eggs were visible too - but despite all these good shots, I got nothing any better than if I had just taken one shot of each rise. It made me realise that much of the time the viscosity of water slows down behaviours underwater and shooting multiple frames often just means multiple similars, rather capturing than some lucky/magic moment. 

 

Alex

6 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

 

When I first got my Nikon D4 (in 2013, I think) I remember shooting mandarinffish in Lembeh one evening. I set the camera to higher ISO and shot 10 frames per second with my Inon Z240 strobes on a lower power. On that dive I had several hundred shots of mandarinffish pairs, I think over 90 in focus where their eggs were visible too - but despite all these good shots, I got nothing any better than if I had just taken one shot of each rise. It made me realise that much of the time the viscosity of water slows down behaviours underwater and shooting multiple frames often just means multiple similars, rather capturing than some lucky/magic moment. 

 

Alex

Have to agree, on land I don't often use high frames per second and in water I'm always on single shot.  The other consideration is hours of sifting through near identical frames when editing after the dive.  I'm sure there are situations where you could make use of the high frame rates, but not a big priority for me.

The only time I’ve used high frame rates was during a dive where there were multiple dolphin pods shooting around. Totally agree on the “careful framing” but for this dive that was near impossible. But then I didn’t use strobes anyway! 

9 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

 

The quick answers are:

1) No. I used the same camera WB for both. But I didn't do detailed testing - I just went out and shot.

2) No. But on the reef, reviewing between shots, I wasn't really shooting fast, I was getting compositions right, reviewing my shot, adjusting when needed. https://www.instagram.com/p/C5rH6q9Nqqv/

 

Longer answers for others, like OP, interested in these things. 

I wasn't doing an official review, but was testing for my own interest - so I didn't take notes or do specific comparison shots. That said I am very familiar with what exposure my normal settings and flash powers give, so I immediate notice the differences of different gear. I am lucky that I have access to all the good gear and I would always swap to better gear when it comes to market - so I always try and try good products.

 

Anyway, I last used the Seacams back to back with the Retras when I was in Misool in March. Although that is not that long ago, I've done over 100 dives this then (with others strobes), so I don't remember all the details. But I clearly remember shooting the same settings with each (both power and exposure settings and using the same white balance I normally use - being a Sony user I shoot K WB mostly). The difference between them in light was very small - and both are very much to my taste. In back to back testing you might see a difference, but shooting real world subjects they give very similar light at the same power settings.

 

Both recycle fine. But neither is as instant as the lithium powered strobes are at the highest powers. I don't remember ever waiting on either strobe (although I was shooting at a normal pace, composing carefully, reviewing etc - see video link above).

 

As a general comment (for the benefit of others following), while recycling time is an easy stat to measure, I don't believe it is important for almost all UW photography. We usually review between shooting, it is not as if we have a (different) perfect photo opportunity several times each second. And I think taking a moment to carefully compose etc, is more valuable than spraying off extra frames. Most things in the ocean do not move super fast. There are not normally fast moving elements likes a bird's wings or eye-lids blinks which make or break a composition a nature composition on land. 

 

When I first got my Nikon D4 (in 2013, I think) I remember shooting mandarinffish in Lembeh one evening. I set the camera to higher ISO and shot 10 frames per second with my Inon Z240 strobes on a lower power. On that dive I had several hundred shots of mandarinffish pairs, I think over 90 in focus where their eggs were visible too - but despite all these good shots, I got nothing any better than if I had just taken one shot of each rise. It made me realise that much of the time the viscosity of water slows down behaviours underwater and shooting multiple frames often just means multiple similars, rather capturing than some lucky/magic moment. 

 

Alex

 

Thanks Alex, that's very helpful. Totally agree that recycling times are not that relevant in general underwater wide angle shooting. They're probably only interesting for fast action pelagic shooting, and perhaps not that important there either if once a strobe can take 3-5 frames a second. 

On 7/29/2024 at 6:23 PM, Alex_Mustard said:

I have done multiple wide angle dives in the last few months with the Retra Pro Max, Seacam 160, Backscatter HF-1, Kraken KS160 (and Scubalamp SUPE D-Pro in December). They are all very good strobes.

Dear Alex, when flipping through the pages of your Underwater Photography Masterclass book and the image index at the end, I was reminded that you have shot the Subtronic Alpha Pro strobes for a very long period of your career and also collected some of your award winning shots with them.

We have in common being a previous owner of that strobe. I recall that it was giving very good quality of light and also being very powerful.

With all the strobes that have recently been connected to your camera, how would you compare them?

.. to the ones I happen to also own, e. g.:

• Backscatter HF-1

• Marelux Apollo III 2.0

( ? )

• feel free to expand the list.

Would be curious to learn your subjetive impression, as you emphasized multiple times,

that the HF-1 is the strongest you have shot so far, if I recall that correctly.

I have always taken light very seriously in my photography and been willing to invest in the best strobes around, even when finances have been tight (as they often are working as a photographer). I credit using quality strobes (and me paying attention to using them well) as being a major factor in me developing a successful career as an underwater photographer. I jokingly credit Sea & Sea for my success - and their marketing machine that kept many of my competitors shooting with inferior light to me for more than a decade!

The Subtronic Alpha Pro strobes were very good in their time (I also had Subtronic Alphas, Megas and Gammas - but preferred the light from the Alpha Pros). They had a pleasing quality of light, good colour temperature. I used them as my main blue water wide angle strobes from about 2000 to 2012. They were not especially reliable, and Subtronic service at that time left a lot to be desired.

I used INON Z240s as macro and green water strobes during much of this period and onwards.

When I could afford new strobes i chose Seacam 150s - which I got in 2012 and used these as my main strobes until 2019. These were noticeably more powerful that the Subtronics. The light was not as soft and i usually used the Seacams with diffusers on them and positioned them slightly further back from my subjects than the Subtronics. But the light is very good, colour excellent and the light went further. The Seacams were more reliable than the Subtronics, but still needed regular servicing. The battery packs and cables were their weak points. Many of my friends shot Sea & Sea YS250s at this time - but I felt that the Seacam was about a stop more powerful and had a better quality of light too. I was very happy there were so many people championing other strobes.

Through much of this time I used the Inon Z240 as my main macro and green water strobes, upgrading to the original Retra flash for this purpose in 2017, I think. I went for the original Retra flash because it had better wide angle ability too, while still in a small package. I did a couple of trips with the Z330s, but these were too wide angle focused.

As the Seacam 150s aged I tried the ONE UW and Seacam 160s as replacements, but settled on the Retra Pros. All there have great powerful light - but the Retra Pros did so in a smaller package and they had the most pleasing soft light in my opinion. They were also cheaper! I stayed with Pros and skipped with Pro X. I then moved to the Pro Max - the light is basically the same as the Pros, but the battery performance is way, way better.

I’ve tried various Chinese circular flash tube, lithium powered strobes - Kraken 160, Supe D-Lamp and these are all fine. The light quality is good. Colour temp a bit cool. The power a step below - I think they don’t get enough light out of the tube despite plenty of power behind it.

The Backscatter HF-1 is the most powerful strobe on the market currently (thatI have tried). It is fun to have so much power and I have used them in preference over the Pro Max on big animal trips like with sharks. But otherwise they tend to be used as backups or as off-camera strobes. They are powerful and reliable and I think the light is decent, but not exceptional. The light is best with the warmest flat diffusers.

The Retra Maxi is slightly more powerful, but is not on sale yet. I’ve not shot the Ikelite 230 in the ocean, only in the pool, but these were a whole stop less bright than the Maxi (and therefore almost the HF-1). Also I did not try the Maxi with the final reflector set up - but as I tried it, it was very similar to HF-1. Retra say the production version will have improved quality of light. I will probably replace my HF-1s with a pair of Maxis when they are available.

The brand new Retra Pro Max II pretty much matches the HF-1 in real world power, with a much better quality of light and in a smaller package. I used them on every dive on my last trip and plan to use them as my main strobes going forward.

The Marelux Apollo 3 is impressive as a companies first strobe. But they are less powerful and have a poorer quality of light to the HF-1, but they are probably more powerful than my old Seacam 150s - so right up there. The light is too directional and lacks red, giving poorer colours when shooting them on the reef. The high speed shooting mode annoys me. In standard mode you can only shoot slowly, and then in the high speed mode you can’t shoot at high enough power - because achieving 10 frames a second is prioritised (a mode that did 5 frames a second at a high power would be great - but you can’t have that). It is like making a car that can do 50 kph and 200kph, but nothing in between. I also think that the Lumilink system has very limited practical use - so bulking up the strobe and bumping up its price to have this is a pity. And sadly it is also impossible to get a honest opinion on any Marelux product because the internet is filled with paid opinions.

As you asked for my subjective opinion - I’d stress that this is all my subjective opinion. We’re lucky now that we have a load of strobes that are way, way better than Z240s and D1s that everyone was using 10-15 years ago. I’ve said/joked several times that the popularity of Retra strobes amongst serious shooters frustrates me - because everyone has great light now - and something that used to differentiate my work has gone.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by Alex_Mustard

Dear Alex,

thank you very much for this intensive and extensive insight in your strobe history and choices.

My simple and short question however aimed at: Backscatter HF-1 being the strongest strobe you have shot so far (you have repeatedly claimed that).
I would like to know, if in your perception, it's also stronger than the old subtronic alpha pro ?

Of course this would be something very subjective, but also something we both could very well relate to.

I especially recall that the subtronics produced decent quality of light without diffusers and were very strong.

PS: I 100% agree with you about the lumilink.

PPS: We also have to keep in mind that cooler color temp strobes always have a strength advantage over warm/high CRI designs, as the energy will be transformed more efficiently into lumen (from xenon) paired with the better penetration power cooler light will have in water. This also explains the strong power of the YS250s back in the old days. Today the HF-1 and Apollo III 2.0 leverage additional subjectively perceived strobe power from it, I guess.

Edited July 19Jul 19 by Adventurer

Yes, way more powerful. Most of the strobes I mentioned above are more powerful than the Subtronic Alpha Pro (which was impressive in its time), but a step (or stop) or two below what we have now.