Inon Z-XXX Prototype at Paris Dive Show

[Jerry Diver]

22 hours ago, makar0n said:

Retra seems to have always had a notorious rep when it comes to battery life.

Based on the data sheets, the Retra Pro Max delivers over 500 shots at full power and 1.000 shots at half power when using the 8xAA Eneloop Pro setup. In comparison, the Inon Z330 provides only 280 shots at full power with its 4xAA Eneloop Pro setup, with no option to extend battery capacity. Additionally, the Z330 lacks a battery indicator, making it difficult to know when the batteries are running low, whereas the Retra Pro Max includes a battery indicator.

 

https://www.retra-uwt.com/pages/4th-generation-retra-flash-series

https://www.backscatter.com/ITEM_IMAGES/Z-330_spec_201712_En.pdf

[makar0n]

4 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

Based on the data sheets, the Retra Pro Max delivers over 500 shots at full power and 1.000 shots at half power when using the 8xAA Eneloop Pro setup. In comparison, the Inon Z330 provides only 280 shots at full power with its 4xAA Eneloop Pro setup, with no option to extend battery capacity. Additionally, the Z330 lacks a battery indicator, making it difficult to know when the batteries are running low, whereas the Retra Pro Max includes a battery indicator.

 

https://www.retra-uwt.com/pages/4th-generation-retra-flash-series

https://www.backscatter.com/ITEM_IMAGES/Z-330_spec_201712_En.pdf

 

Ach there is my favorite Retra fanboy! I really wish I had access to IP addresses of the users, wonder if yours wouldn't perhaps turn in to be Slovenian, that of a VPN, or traced to somebody business related. It's really cringy to watch those "praise Retra/Li-Ion (only when Retra announces battery pack), slam competitors/Li-Ion (before Retra announces battery pack)" posts with virtually nothing else. And I won't even say which industry person present on this website your writing style looks like.

 

But I digress, manufacturer specs can be anything they post on the website. Especially if one is very conservative and the other very optimistic. I will let you guess which one is which.

Meanwhile real-life feedback is people have to buy the 8 battery extension for Retra as near mandatory, and even then complain about having to constantly charge the batteries and travel with a stack of them ;]

Also, you are comparing quite an older strobe with latest model. Why not go against Z-220 if you are at it?

 

And the battery indicator changes everything of course. How could I possibly have done all those years diving without one, silly me. Yet never ran out of the battery juice. Must be nothing short of a miracle. After all, having to change batteries once every 2 days (and they usually won't be nowhere near empty by then neither ) its such an impossible task. Its not like this gives me 100% confidence I have juice vs looking at some imprecise (as I do not see any actual capacity) indicator that might change 5 minutes after I go under.

Edited Monday at 02:23 PM by makar0n

[Klaus]

Let‘s not get worked up on this too much - those who are fully satisfied with their strobe might not even read this thread.
On the other hand, is it possible for a UW photographer to be fully satisfied with ANY strobe?
There are some fundamental laws, and one of them says that energy can only be transformed but not created. And another one says (more or less) that all energy transformations are associated with losses. So current to light and heat as loss. Inon makes a clear statement in the instructions that you should not fire flashes at full power repeatedly. Sea&Sea did not, but the D2 earned a reputation. 
I guess that there may be some differences between the brands, but 4x vs. 8x AA is DOUBLE. They simply cannot be that ignorant at Retra. It would require the very first generation of „auto“ strobe circuits, which just dumped the rest of the charge after switching off the tube. This was before 1970 or so.
 

Can we get back to the Ionon Z-XXX that at least some of us find interesting? Any pictures that we LIT by one or two of those?
 

[Adventurer]

Friends told me which have seen the prototype on a trade show that INON is heading to be part of the beyond Guide Number 40 club with that strobe. In fact way beyond: aiming at the GN44 / GN45 region.

 

All this while maintaining the 4x Eneloop design and small size and weight of a Z330 body.

 

This would be very travel friendly and amazing advance in electronics efficiency. 😎 exiting times!

 

 

[Nemrod]

I am in for the ZXXX quite possibly. I replaced my D2000 strobes (dead and dying) with two S220 strobes because there was nothing else I could afford that was as compact as the D/Z Inon case that promised the reliability track record of Inon. It would be nice if they also had HSS. I wonder if they could use the same case as the Z330 but include a peripheral heat sink sandwiched between the dome and the body. Not as heavy as the Backscatter strobe. A GN in the 40 range would be nice.

[Barmaglot]

9 hours ago, Adventurer said:

Friends told me which have seen the prototype on a trade show that INON is heading to be part of the beyond Guide Number 40 club with that strobe. In fact way beyond: aiming at the GN44 / GN45 region.

 

All this while maintaining the 4x Eneloop design and small size and weight of a Z330 body.

Either Inon engineers have figured out how to break the laws of physics, or their marketing department is being more flexible with the definition of 'GN' than ever before. Z-330's GN33 was already available only in the tiny spot where the two beams intersected at maximum intensity; getting GN45 out of a 4xAA design... well, maybe not physically impossible - one could, in theory, stack enough capacitor banks to pull it off, although physical size of the strobe body puts a certain limit on that - but it will mean very long recycle times and very short battery life.

[Adventurer]

1 hour ago, Barmaglot said:

Either Inon engineers have figured out how to break the laws of physics, or their marketing department is being more flexible with the definition of 'GN' than ever before. Z-330's GN33 was already available only in the tiny spot where the two beams intersected at maximum intensity; getting GN45 out of a 4xAA design...

 Quite evil post @Barmaglot ?!?! Have you had bad experience with them or are you even affiliated with an INON competitor ? 

 

That you can pull off guide numbers beyond 40 out of compact 4xAA design has been successfully demonstrated by Canon EX Speedlites more than a decade ago.

 

Canon 580EX II had GN = 58

Design has further progressed to shrink size and level up to GN60 in compact designs, this is @ 200mm focal length, with Canon Speedlite EL-1 though. But looking at the available water cooling and INONs advanced experience in underwater reflector design, crossing the GN40 barrier in year 2025 sounds quite archivable to me; even if you have to deliver a wider beam.

[Chris Ross]

I think we need to recognize a few things when comparing strobes.  First GN is generally measured in the centre where it probably least useful and of course there is no standard for measuring and reporting GN, it will change for instance between indoor and outdoor test as the walls bounce light back in.  GN are regarded with suspicion even on Land based flashes.

 

Second to compare how much we are getting out of the strobe we need to include beam angle - the 580 EX which I own has a GN of 58 at maximum zoom concentrating the light into the field of a 105mm lens.  It shrinks to GN of 15 when covering the field of a 14mm lens which is commonly what the UW flashes achieve for field coverage or a little more.

 

Looking at the light required to fill a 110deg cone with light versus a 130 deg cone, and plugging the results into a lux calculator, then assuming 1000 lumens illuminating the circle at the end of a 110 deg cone gives 156 lux and a 130 deg cone gives 69 lux at the same distance of 1 meter.  Back calculating, you would need 2200 lumens to achieve the same the same illumination on the subject (as a 110 deg cone) with the bigger coverage of the 130 deg beam angle.

 

So this means to achieve the same GN, assuming even illumination over a 130 deg cone, as you get from a 110 deg cone you need 2.2x as much light and hence 2.2x the battery power.

 

This compares apples with apples and shows that while  a 130 deg field might be nice it has a price associated with it.  So the INON doesn't need as much power to illuminate the same subject but you have to be more precise in positioning its beams to fully cover a wide field compared to a 130 deg strobe.  this demonstrates why the Retra chews batteries faster.

[Barmaglot]

48 minutes ago, Adventurer said:

 Quite evil post @Barmaglot ?!?! Have you had bad experience with them or are you even affiliated with an INON competitor ? 

I'm not affiliated with anyone in the industry. My source for the claim above is here: https://forum.tetis.ru/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110691&p=1595054#p1595054

 

51 minutes ago, Adventurer said:

 

That you can pull off guide numbers beyond 40 out of compact 4xAA design has been successfully demonstrated by Canon EX Speedlites more than a decade ago.

 

Canon 580EX II had GN = 58

With an extremely narrow beam, yes, which is not particularly useful while shooting with fisheye, now is it?

 

51 minutes ago, Adventurer said:

But looking at the available water cooling and INONs advanced experience in underwater reflector design, crossing the GN40 barrier in year 2025 sounds quite archivable to me; even if you have to deliver a wider beam.

Cooling matters only in dissipating waste heat. There is a finite amount of energy contained in 4xAA cells, and no matter how good your reflectors are, if you spread your beam out, it will take a lot of energy to keep the bulbs emitting long enough to achieve those high GNs.

[makar0n]

12 hours ago, Adventurer said:

Friends told me which have seen the prototype on a trade show that INON is heading to be part of the beyond Guide Number 40 club with that strobe. In fact way beyond: aiming at the GN44 / GN45 region.

 

All this while maintaining the 4x Eneloop design and small size and weight of a Z330 body.

 

This would be very travel friendly and amazing advance in electronics efficiency. 😎 exiting times!

 

 

 

We had Z-240, then Z-330...Time for a Z-420 xD

[Nemrod]

I see no reason that even using the current battery port of Inon that a booster pack could not be designed as an accessory to screw on to the existing design for longer battery cycles between charging, stacking the batters four by four. I too am skeptical of huge GN claims from numerous manufacturers using four AA batteries. But it probably is time for a Z420. The recycle time and battery life would be compromised for higher power shots but most shots are not done at full dump and when they are it is CFWA stuff that is not going to swim away so it is possible to endure a longer charge cycle perhaps. Maybe.

 

Anyways, I am interested what is offered. The new product does not need to be as powerful as the big Retra or that chunky but strong Backscatter strobe. An increase in power, addition of HSS and maintain the current form factor, weight, buoyancy and reliability is enough. A GN of 33 to 40 is enough but for all but the most demanding FF shooters.

Edited Tuesday at 03:57 PM by Nemrod

[Klaus]

Totally agreed. There is a need for packable, light and sufficiently powered strobes for those who travel with maybe a pair of hiking boots or things like that in addition to the UW photography gear. 

Sure, 4x AA won‘t recycle very fast, but the longest recycling time is for the strobe that had to stay at home 😉

And for everyone else there‘s other brands that offer long-life Lithium-powered light sabers. It‘s good if we can still choose which compromises we want to make. And as far as I can tell the new Inon does not even „need“ to be stronger since the Z330 is not available any more? So there may be some ambitious marketing claims, but even if it is a down-to-earth Z330 remake it will have its niche in the reef.

[Adventurer]

2 hours ago, Klaus said:

the longest recycling time is for the strobe that had to stay at home 😉

This is very nicely put 😁☝️

Cudos Klaus!

[makar0n]

20 hours ago, Nemrod said:

(...)

 

Anyways, I am interested what is offered. The new product does not need to be as powerful as the big Retra or that chunky but strong Backscatter strobe. An increase in power, addition of HSS and maintain the current form factor, weight, buoyancy and reliability is enough. A GN of 33 to 40 is enough but for all but the most demanding FF shooters.

 

16 hours ago, Klaus said:

Totally agreed. There is a need for packable, light and sufficiently powered strobes for those who travel with maybe a pair of hiking boots or things like that in addition to the UW photography gear. 

Sure, 4x AA won‘t recycle very fast, but the longest recycling time is for the strobe that had to stay at home 😉

And for everyone else there‘s other brands that offer long-life Lithium-powered light sabers. It‘s good if we can still choose which compromises we want to make. And as far as I can tell the new Inon does not even „need“ to be stronger since the Z330 is not available any more? So there may be some ambitious marketing claims, but even if it is a down-to-earth Z330 remake it will have its niche in the reef.

 

The very exact thing. Not bothered about GN gazillion at all - would love a travel and tight places friendly strobe (and not the current crop of bricks) with modern features like HSS,  maybe even a circular tube for a nice beam. Support for Li-Ion batteries (maybe even interchangeable with AA) purely for a faster recycle rate. Absolutely no battery packs.  Well made, with a minimum 100m depth rating and reasonably priced as well.

But a man can dream...

 

 

[TimG]

23 minutes ago, makar0n said:

 

 

The very exact thing. Not bothered about GN gazillion at all - would love a travel and tight places friendly strobe (and not the current crop of bricks) with modern features like HSS,  maybe even a circular tube for a nice beam. Support for Li-Ion batteries (maybe even interchangeable with AA) purely for a faster recycle rate. Absolutely no battery packs.  Well made, with a minimum 100m depth rating and reasonably priced as well.

But a man can dream...

 

 

That’d be the Retra then, makar0n? 😝

[Floris Bennema]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

That’d be the Retra then, makar0n? 😝

 .. reasonably priced as well.

[makar0n]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

That’d be the Retra then, makar0n? 😝

 

7 minutes ago, Floris Bennema said:

 .. reasonably priced as well.

 

Let's add "travel and tight spaces friendly". Could also go with "power efficient".

And this wannabe Apple Pro Max naming....yikes xD

Edited Wednesday at 02:42 PM by makar0n

[TimG]

1 hour ago, makar0n said:

 

 

Let's add "travel and tight spaces friendly". Could also go with "power efficient".

And this wannabe Apple Pro Max naming....yikes xD

See! See the light you would I knew. 

[makar0n]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

See! See the light you would I knew. 

 

Waiting for the Pro Max Retina XDR Thunderbolt Liquid model. And 1k stand as an accessory 🤣

[TimG]

53 minutes ago, makar0n said:

 

Waiting for the Pro Max Retina XDR Thunderbolt Liquid model. And 1k stand as an accessory 🤣

Titanium edition? 

[EnryDiveLover]

I hope the new Inon ZXXX will keep both connection with: 5 pin sync cord and fiber optic cables.

[makar0n]

On 2/19/2025 at 9:53 PM, EnryDiveLover said:

I hope the new Inon ZXXX will keep both connection with: 5 pin sync cord and fiber optic cables.

 

I always wondered - do people still use the 5 pin ? Fiber sounds like so much easier/simpler solution really. Personally I think i've opened that 5 pin cap on Z-240 once...for greasing xD

[TimG]

3 hours ago, makar0n said:

 

I always wondered - do people still use the 5 pin ? Fiber sounds like so much easier/simpler solution really. Personally I think i've opened that 5 pin cap on Z-240 once...for greasing xD

Yeah, I had a similar thought. I switched to fibre around 2013 and would never go back. 

[ChipBPhoto]

Fiber is the only way to go!  The only reason I used a sync cord was my older Canon required the onboard pop up flash as the trigger.  The recycle time was very slow.  Now that I have an external trigger with my Sony, fiber is the easiest and most dependable option. 

[Chris Ross]

Agree that fibre is the way to go though there are some housing options where you can't do this,  Ikelite is one, Seacam also though they have a full Canon or Nikon TTL built into their strobes which works over wire - apparently quite well.