RomiK

For reference here is image with picture profile OFF displayed on Shinobi set for Slog3 input... Not ideal but also not too bad

16 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

You dont understand what I mean

The LCD will also display the footage you are shooting not just the settings as Panasonic does this has three implications

1. the control display are tiny as they are buried in the screen

2. You start notice that the HDMI has a lag...

3. The battery usage is more

 

You do not need HDR monitoring. Even topside nobody does that everybody monitors in rec709, underwater with a decent monitor and hood 10 stops of a good rec709 monitor is sufficient

In addition no atomos monitor has more than 10 stops anyway it is a bit of a fluke what they do and their PQ display is incorrect

Again, not quite true, Sony's monitor off course can show info or even a blank screen only. So if anything I would save on battery should I choose this display. But then I also like to see the confirmation of a focus point... 

As for HDR monitor usability I think it's a bit personal taste - if shooting something mechanically, like talking heads or fast moving skateboards from below then yes, monitor is just monitor and I need to see shapes. But if I am judging in real time how would certain scenario turn up and which exposure to give to it, like water reflection, sunballs etc then I find ability to see HDR quite valuable. Different tools for different needs but underwater we only have one to use 🙂 

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

 

in addition on sony you cant display the camera settings on lcd and have clean output on hdmi another gem

Not true. On Sony if you select HDMI info display off you get all shootings information on the camera monitor and clean HDMI on external monitor.  So you can preview beautiful 10bit image on external monitor. Unfortunately - as you also found out - there is no way to change Shinobi setting underwater meaning once I set it co convert Slog3 Sgamut for display I have to feed it with Slog3 Sgamut all the time including stills. Or I could forget about stills, they will end up ok anyway and just get used to a little contrasty oversaturated look of them underwater knowing that they will turn up perfect in post.

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Do you mean you can't set an output LUT on hdmi? Only in photos or also in video?

Btw now all monitors have the possibility to load LUTs. If you can't do it via the housing, you have to set it on land. Of course you then work like this for the whole dive.

 

I will change the title at the request of the op if necessary.

Yes, please, digging this deeper it appears the thread should read "Challenges of shooting photos and HDR videos with Sony A1(Ax?) cameras and Shinobi external monitor underwater."  As I just tried my R6 Canon for example deals with monitor differently.

As for LUTs you can definitely load custom LUT on Shinobi however in my eyes best representation of Gamut is given by converting SLog3 to PQ in monitor. I get an idea what's recorded and whatever I do with it in post is up2me. SGamut has wider space than HLG than 709 so information is there and however I clip it is - again - up to me.

I find this valuable because - especially in video - the ability to see what I record is important to my artistic desires 🙂 . Imagine sunballs, all these dreamy shots with water above etc... rec709 monitor or viewfinder just won't cut it 🙂  

25 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

 

Really a deal breaker for me. I'm curious if this "gem" is a design failure on the A1 or applies to A7x line and cinema line FX.

 

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00120915

 

Edit: I see that latest FW update for FX3 added the possibility to view LUTs via HDMI with an endless caveat list:

 

 Yes, FX3 seems to address this issue somewhat however it is meant for strict video creators - to use the LUT preview on camera rig whether they have monitor attached or not. BUT the issue is HDR and 10bit. Since the camera monitor is not HDR it will show anything meaningful only in 709 conversion... But the beauty of Shinobi is that it is true 10bit HDR screen... so to preview HDR content you need to use external monitor and HDR LUT anyway which means you would see squat on built-in monitor. However Shinobi could be set to native input and output which would mean if FX3 can shoot pictures and with flash and monitor it could be a true hybrid HDR rig although 12MPix stills only. I am sensing A7Siii has the same problem as A1.

On 2/23/2024 at 5:00 PM, Tobyone said:

My favorite wide set up is the Loawa 9mm on aps Fuji.  When you have fast action you don't want to complicate with focal length, pick a FOV and go with it. Shooting Whale Sharks or Sailfish. At f5.6- 11 you can zone focus.

Here is a link to some photos :

 

These are excellent pictures. I for one can't wait to try Sony 14mm/1.8GM behind 180mm glass next week in Maldives. I am thinking of Manta cleaning station, maybe channel shark dive, tiger zoo and fish factory rays madness 🤞

Playing more with the setup and coming back to the original purpose of this thread - which I started in order to give something back to the community and not to bicker out personalized opinions.

I should probably change the name to challenges with Shinobi and A1 when hybrid shooting 🙂 

The lag in between modes changing I mentioned earlier - as long as Sony doesn't change the signal out there is no lag and changes between still and movie mode on the monitor are instant. Or when shooting movies from still mode - also instant.

When Sony changes signal out? When set to auto and movie is set to anything else then 60 or 120 fps - simplified.

Shinobi is limited to 4k30 input. It's HD screen only anyway. So there is no reason why not to set HDMI out on Sony to 1080p only.

Still modes PASM send HDMI signal out at 4k30 (auto) or 1080p60 if set.

Movie mode sends signal out up to 4k30 (auto) or at 1080p60 if set UNLESS you decide the shoot at 24fps

So what is the best practice for hybrid shooting and fast switching between modes? Set HDMI out to 1080p and avoid shooting movies in 24fps like a plague. All other frame rates and resolutions will be sent out as 1080p60 and so Shinobi will not change signal input and all changes will be instant. Good luck in selecting your monitor and camera 🙂 

10 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Yes I did its a mess hence am saying this is not the way forward

a monitor may be useful for video where you shoot with ambient light

for shots with strobes is an unnecessary expensive and bulky complication 

in addition the camera doesn’t really work well with a video monitor in 3:2

aspect ratio and the whole black bars

ruin everything 

i am sorry am crushing your dream I have looked into this for years even topside the only benefit is a larger screen for review. But the A1 high rez

evf is better and the nauticam viewfinder have optical correction

Even for video I find monitors of limited use for photos are a total no go

i am going to leave this thread

as I am sure there will be millions of arguments I dont want to reply to

my advice sell it

 it's a bit low to trash something just because you don't/can't have it 🤣 I will say your view of the world is quite narrow and you don't hesitate to push it through so strong person there 🤣 You really need to play with your new camera to understand it better 🤙

For others who would like to see example of stills with flash in Slog3 here is a boring picture from The Boiler divesite of Socorro with its raw, processed, 100% and 800% crops, and some other more attractive shots from Cabo Pearce, you can judge the feasibility of taking stills with log profile for yourself. These are mixed scenes where flash is used to just fill in and we also need to recover some colors and contrast in the background in post. The lens is a video lens as the subject of this thread talks something about true hybrid shooting 🤙

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

I dont think you understand what I said when you shoot with picture profiles the camera raw exposure is off 3 stops in vlog this is how the camera implements it try to shoot a grey card

in essence do not use picture profiles 

second there is no point using waveform as those as well are tools for video 

if you really want to use vlog you need to use a lut in photoshop this is not worth it after all because if you shoot with flash you don’t even use live view

in my opinion using a monitor as viewfinder gives more problems than opportunities is expensive and not streamlined

Did you ever try to shoot pictures in Slog3 a process them in Lightroom... just go outside, take three shots, one no PP and two with Slog3 at 0EV and +2EV and see it for yourself... use standard Adobe color and report any differences you could spot 🙂  I shot like 6000 images over the past year and half with A1 underwater, with and without profiles, with and without flash so no need to mentor here 🙂 No need for LUTs when developing stills. For video yes, LUTs are essential but that's the point to shoot in log. In a sense there is no avenue to produce HDR footage without recording in LOG format save for HLG which has limited color grading options. But being a professional if you say you shoot talking heads you already know this. As for the benefits of external monitor - "one man's truth is another man's bias" 🙂 

8 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Sony slog3 produces a heavily underexposed raw files because raw is linear and slog3 is logarithmic 

on the A1 this is 3 stops 

Off course you have to compensate for that. Same applies for video although stills you can push a bit more. Video like 1.7 stops. That's like a basic rule but I might add that the correct way of exposing Slog is using waveforms or other tools available (sadly A1 does not have these built in) and external monitor allows just that.

8 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

 

in addition the hdmi port has at least 150ms lag from reality 

i shoot video with the evf as I cant stand the lag topside or underwater unless I am shooting talking heads and set scenes

HDMI lag is really not an issue, for me like unnoticeable. But switching among the modes - takes ages. I am used to do like getting an eagle ray shot, then switch to movie mode and while the ray sticks around I swim with it in parallel and make a nice movie segment (can't do this with a viewfinder btw). Now I will have to time it better or shoot blind first couple seconds.

P.S. For admins - I named this thread wrong, it was supposed to be a Monitor and not Viewfinder in the heading 🙈 - if admin could change this to accommodate forum search function? thx

nullThis setup is 14kg air and 0 underwater. So you might think that by the challenge I meant the back hurt by transporting it topside. Partially truth 🙂

The challenge I had in mind lies in clean HDMI output and HDR capabilities of Shinobi screen. It's 10bit 1000nits HDR display and as such it allows me to preview and tweak exposure of Slog3 footage coming out the camera in PQ mode and really really push it in terms of sunball against the light water surface shots. Can't wait to try it out. 

Because of that I have to have monitor set accepting Slog3 from the camera and display it in PQ color space. And there is no access to monitor settings underwater when in housing. Which also means that when I am shooting stills I have to shoot them with PP9 (Slog3) profile. Because the monitor treats incoming HDMI like I told it to and when sending signal without PP the result is unwatchable. So far in my research and tests show that it doesn't appear to be a big problem - well lit scenes have almost identical color saturation and underwater I don't care much about shadows in which - topside - I found less color saturation compared to shooting without picture profile. (yes we still talk raw files).

Interesting enough Sony A1 produces identical grain for pictures shot ISO 8000 shot without PP and ISO80000 in pictures shot with PP9 Slog3 profile. Also no difference in saturations in these high ISO. It were low ISO like 100 no PP and 800 PP9 where I found those differences.

Off course I could not use PP for stills and switch to control display in HDMI output setting but then I would loose benefits of using amazing Shinobi HDR screen... Plus time switching it...

Decision decision... 

On 1/22/2024 at 12:19 AM, JohnD said:

Additionally, however, i keep finding myself at dive places with small rinse tanks and on small dive boats with very limited camera space.  I have always managed, but frankly, as this is a hobby and not a job, I sometimes get tired of the struggle.

 

 I see you'd like to get a taste the 'free world' 🙂 . I too am tired when I see what's coming out of iPhones underwater 🙂 For now on video side but just a matter of time someone figures out simple flash and synchro 🙂 

The truth is that no matter how small ILC you choose when you add handles, even a small dome and flashes the overall size and weight won't make drastic difference re: the quote above.

So how about - just to taste that world 🙂 - before spending considerable money just to end up with something marginally smaller than what you currently have - so how about getting TG6-7, single handle and single strobe, perhaps add fish eye conversion if that CFWA is your thing and go explore? Maybe you gonna like it 🙂 

https://www.uwphotographyguide.com/olympus-tg6-wide-angle-fcon-t02-fisheye-lens

On 2/19/2024 at 1:54 AM, DreiFish said:

 I've always felt that the Canon 8-15 was sharper and more contrasty than the WACP-1 with the Canon 28-70F3.5-4.5 lens. 

 If I could voice my opinion I would say this - topside we can always see differences between good and - mediocre - lenses. Good example in m43 world Lumix lenses and their counterparts Leica variants. The differences in color rendition, sharpness, micro contrast, all that woodoo which makes the image pop up, especially in challenging light conditions, all these are staggering.

Now why would that be different underwater?  It's like putting lipstick on the pig. Slapping another piece of optics, no matter how well calculated from geometry standpoint, on a mediocre lens like this Canon 28-70 (or my Sony 28-60) will not make better image than superb 8-15L (or my Sony 14 1.8G) behind the glass dome. It just won't. So kudos to Nauticam they try something new to extend their revenue stream but what is the expertise behind their lens R&D except for mathematical modeling really.... I'd say CaNiSoSig patents are worth something for a reason... glasses, coatings and all that... Not saying that their WACPs FCPs are worthless, not at all, they have their use cases but only people who can really benefit from these use cases should invest there, they definitely are not general public fix them all solution nor holy grails of underwater photography is what I think 🙂

17 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

If you can tolerate a little bit of lag and reduced battery life, WiFi is an option.

Not really... for wifi there is a need for that extender and it just gets in the way. On alu housing you are supposed to place it over the plexiglass of rear screen which renders it unusable. And there is only one housing with touch interface - divevolk - and that touch is not really that touch friendly underwater believe you me 🙂 

What I like on 28-60/WWL1B is flexibility, corner to corner 'sharpness' and angle of view with zoom. It's not going to have sharpness and micro contrast of a good lens in a dome but then there are more variables under water so... In my experience and view as all water contact optics it likes a lot of straight light and doesn't like challenging light conditions like light shooting against contrast edges etc. But 99% the only time you would see differences in the micro contrast and other woodoo parameters would be direct comparison side by side of the identical image so... Here original unprocessed, 100% region, 400% region and final (to me) image shot at 57mm F11 ISO400 on A1. Good luck, still not sure if I am gonna keep it as I switch lenses in the dome plus my favorite all arounder is 20-70F4... so there might be one combo available in Prague. Cheers

WOW! 👏 This is like next level! "I  just made my own housing" 🙂 👏 I am still perplexed as why in the age of todays phone screens and battery sizes most hdmi monitors are using bulky NFP batteries... It would be so nice having housing a little bigger than phone but I guess it's a fantasyland...

Yes there is. Just wanted to clarify my post - @Davide DB summed the issues with Chinese really well and exactly to experience I had. Good luck everyone selecting their monitor. 

@brightnight summed it up really well. On paper and pictures these Krakens and weefines look good but there is a good reason why there aren’t favorable reviews to be found apart from the paid cheerleaders. Chinese just slap the monitor into waterproof housing and when selling it they even do not bother to remove features such as “usb port for LUT import” or “sd card slot” 😂. Heck Kraken can’t even get dimensions right in their official manual. When I wrote them when they could ship I got answer in next hour. Subsequent question about the sd card is unanswered to this day 😂

I have had terrible experience with WED7 from weefine - software issues, freezing software, screen lamination smears visible in broad light and off course 400 nits is unusable in daylight. And plus it’s a brick in the water and necessary compensations make it cumbersome to use.

Angler looks good with good buoyancy and with that huge shade might even be usable in daylight. But for just few dollars more there is Shinobi with 1000nits HDR screen and that’s the route I ultimately chose. I will post picture including compensations soon. 

On 12/29/2023 at 4:37 PM, Proteus said:

I'm glad we're having this discussion, because I could "swear" that I'm getting better images from the 20-70!  And yes, I understand the AOV and corner compromises.

There is no "science" behind my impression.  Given that I've never done side by side, or equivalent settings comparisons I would be the first to defer to those that have done that kind of work.  That said, I am really liking the 20-70 and am thinking that it may become my "go-to" lens, especially in uncertain visibilities.  I had planned to use the 28-60 / WWL-1B for this, but now I'm wondering ...

Gary

 Same experience here. I just like dome images much better than wet optics. 20-70F4 or even 16-35F4PZ produce nicer images than 28-60/WWL1B or EMWL in my experience and opinion. The subject sharpness and more importantly the micro contrast of these images just make them stand out for comparable shots.

20-70F4 is amazing lens for dives expecting unexpected 🙂 Here a quick shot from Maldives 'channel sharks' location. While observing sharks with wide angle this little beauty just popped among us by the reef hooks 🙂 - 20-70F4 at 70mm F4

37 minutes ago, TimG said:

Have you got a pic or two you could post, RomiK, of that shoot?

It’s processed though 🙈🙂

Nice video and setup Alex! Another option is to balance the weight masses independently such as here Retras with superchargers each arm with 900g and EMWL with extra 900g. Completely neutral and offers flexibility of placing strobes independently. Plus shooting upwards is somewhat easier. Beautiful thing on this activity is that each path has it own solutions isn’t it 🙂

Ha-ha, funny, I was toying with the same idea time to time but no, it’s not practical especially for the locations with current you mentioned. I use my EMWL130 with A1 and 90mm and yes, it’s major PITA for anything else than to drop from the boat and exploring nearby. It allows for great non macro shots though as you can stick it where normal dome camera wouldn’t fit and get great shots with that open background. Imagine lionfish next to corral with sun ball etc. But it’s Red Sea with no hostile environment like Indonesia 🙂. For balancing one 900g floatie placed on macro port hot shoe will do but that’s not highlight either and the rig is simply little too big for currents. Another factor to consider - optical quality will suffer, you image travels 3 times through water contact and plus you have 3 times the chance getting a debris there. Aside from debris I found the image not as sharp as from the dome setup.  

For what you want to do next month on the trip to Maldives I will try WWL1B paired with 28-60 and accompanied with CMC2 as both allow fast switch by bayonet. I am quite happy with WWL so I assume the CMC2 will do simple macro on the same dive.  

Having said that I just got Shinobi monitor and housing so the next thing is to try EMWL without relay lens using the Flip option on the monitor to see things not upside down. That setup I would try use for macro dives where I wouldn’t want to miss wide angle. Cheers. 

As recently as couple days ago I was in the same situation which monitor solution I should give a second go. So it's still in my head and so I might be long on this one 🙂  I actually bought this Divevolk solution after having terrible experience with Weefine's WED7 couple years ago. The problem with workarounds like divevolk is that they do not tend to work when one would need them. Forget about the lag, it's not that bad, the connection and the reliability of establishing it over and over - at least on Sony - is the real issue for me. So when I imagined logistics on a live aboard where most of my dives are with 3-4 dives per day checking the footage in between the dives - it was a real nightmare. Plus the element attached to the housing should be placed on acrylic effectively blocking access to camera monitor... So I swallowed the pill and bought Shinobi with Nauticam housing... I was also researching the other Chinese units, Kraken with their 3000 nits looked promising but all that proved to be a vaporware. For one their negative buoyancy is like 600+ grams (what they say, so double it, I think Wed7 was like 1000g if I remember well) and second they lie in their marketing specs about the size, ability to import LUTs etc... And so the available options for at least 1000nits monitor shrunk quite a bit and since I preferred long battery life over recording capability it was Shinobi. Good luck.

Hi there! Found this forum when tempering my GAS 🙂 . Got my first camera in 1978 (I guess I am old 🙂 ) but I started diving only in 2018 as there was a lot of BS among malawi cichlid keepers and I wanted to know how the fish really lived. So I bought GH5S and Aquatica housing and flew to complete my AOWD to Nkhata Bay, Malawi with altitude diving experience as a bonus 🙂 (did you know lake Malawi lies about 500m above sea level... 🙂 )

Fast forward 5 years and 500 dives with most of it with side mount I switched to Sony A1 in Nauticam eco system, even got me EMWL 🙂 , Retra flash, some 12000l solar flares for video and my hobby lately is to print my pictures in 1x2m wall tiles as my dentist offered me a sweet barter deal if decorating his clinic 🙂 . So A1 would be paid for now if it wasn't for my teeth 😄 . Cheers! 🙂