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Perspective on HDR

Started by loftus ·

  • 128Posts
  • 128Replies

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Perspective on HDR

128 posts
  1. A few of us, Warren, Jeremy, and myself have posted some images and thoughts on HDR. Though in it's infancy, particularly underwater, I think we happen to believe in a bright future for this technology. Most folks I think are still unsure because of the 'gimmicky'look of many HDR images, but I for one think that HDR can take photography into a new realm of realism.

    This morning I was reading one of the HDR threads that I follow and a new guy posted this introduction, which I think articulates the concept very well.

     

    "Hello all!

     

    I'm new to the HDR list, and wanted to say hello and introduce myself. From

    reading earlier threads, there are some interesting people here and I hope

    to meet some of you along the way some day.

     

    I'm a record producer who is known for a jazz recording label called Smalls

    Records, and I'm a photographer who mostly concentrates on artist portraits

    and performances, though I occasionally venture into other subjects. Though

    I've taken photographs for many years (with some long breaks), I've recently

    come to a period of creative rediscovery, brought about in large part by the

    artistic possibilities afforded by HDR (and in part due to a love affair

    with a Nikon D3). I'm a big fan of Photomatix and hope to see the

    developers succeed in a position of leadership in a growing area.

     

    I believe that HDR is in many ways a more encompassing notion of photography

    than any traditional notion, and that in many ways, I believe that with

    suitable refinements and advances, it can be at both the center and the

    forefront. For one thing, traditional photography can be thought of as just

    sitting on the scale of dynamic range at the lower end of the scale wherein

    "LDR" photography is just a more trivial case of HDR photography. I feel

    that LDR photography has no special privilege and no claim to being

    "normal", and, whether you use a 9-stop slice of light, or a 15-stop slice

    of light, is a matter of choice, but ultimately the same thing.

     

    I think that we are going to see more and more techniques for supersampling

    scenes, perhaps going under different names, but that we are talking about

    largely the same thing. We strive to record every part of a scene

    faithfully regardless of the range of light values, working with the

    practical limitations of our recording media, and then we try to map those

    recorded values onto a display surface of our choice, and choose how to

    render within the range of the display medium. This is photography of any

    kind, articulated from this new perspective.

     

    For a while now, I've been expecting to see supersampling techniques being

    incorporated into cameras. I see that Fuji now has started to do something

    like that with its dual capture EXR technology. I think this is just the

    beginning. There may be a future in developing cameras that can supersample

    a scene (using whatever method, including near-instantaneous multiple

    exposures with a single click) and produce a 32-bit RAW image file, and

    optionally a tonemapped image. It can be done now. I'd like to see the

    people at Photomatix be in the forefront of that.

     

    As someone who uses HDR primarily for portraiture, these kinds of advances

    would be a big boost to my efforts. I really think that once the practical

    aspects of HDR are addressed, it will become usable for the entire range of

    subjects, and it will be the new normal.

     

    I have some questions, but I'll save those for the next note.

     

    All the best, Luke

     

    Some of my recent works

    www.smallsrecords.com/art/galleria/gallery-hdr.htm

     

    Smalls Records

    www.smallsrecords.com "

  2. Very cool - thanks for posting that!

     

    I haven't been to the club in YEARS, but Smalls is one of the coolest little no-cover Jazz clubs in the world.

     

    He's GOOD with tonemapping/processing! I may stroll down to Smalls and try and strike up a conversation ... if I connect, I'll report back.

  3. I might have to set up a weekend trip to NYC and do the same. (Any excuse to go to NYC for a weekend)

  4. Interersting photos, and I like the concept of HDR myself. Have not had a chance to really try it out, but to me it is another cool tool in the tool chest.

     

    I know you did some with the dolphins and the sunsets from your jetski, but for right now HDR is not really workable for underwater (well at least for me, never use a tripod and often in currents so would be kind of difficult to get the series I need :offtopic: )

     

    I know someone else through out the idea that perhaps one shot will be able to do the series, now that will be very cool. Every time I see the discussion on HDR I go out and shoot a couple of shots just for fun. I really need to make some time and go out with a tripod for some shots.

     

    And if you make it north, let me know. I think Jeremy mentioned he will buy the first couple of rounds :P

  5. And if you make it north, let me know. I think Jeremy mentioned he will buy the first couple of rounds :offtopic:

    Definitely!

  6. In keeping with his general line of reasoning, I think ultimately what we need is a sensor capable of capturing 32-bit images across a 15 stop DR from a single exposure.

     

    Right?

  7. Definitely!

     

     

    :P To add further temptation for a NY road trip for Dr. Loftus, I will get a couple of rounds after and pick up the cover charge (You said there was no cover charge, right? :offtopic: )

  8. In keeping with his general line of reasoning, I think ultimately what we need is a sensor capable of capturing 32-bit images across a 15 stop DR from a single exposure.

     

    Right?

     

     

    8 stops will be fine for the short term. The way things are changing so quickly with the recent round of Nikons and Canons, could be the middle of next year....

  9. 8 stops will be fine for the short term. The way things are changing so quickly with the recent round of Nikons and Canons, could be the middle of next year....

    I think the D3/D700 can capture 9-10. :-)

     

    Just looked at Smalls website. Seems 9/11 spelled the end of the original and the current club is a re-incarnation ... but now has a full bar and cover. The old Smalls had no bar.

     

    There is still a no-cover late night jam session.

  10. I think the D3/D700 can capture 9-10. :-)

     

     

    I am on a roll today - merely thinking that you will pick up the first rounds made it so, thinking about the camera made it happen. BRB I am heading out to buy a lottery ticket right now and will let you know how it goes.

     

    Glad to see the club re-opened, way too many music places have shut down in NYC throughout the years. Many of my old haunts are gone.

  11. Speaking of the D3/D700, I do hope that Nikon sticks with a sensor of similar pixel size in their line up as they add video etc, and does not succumb completely to the MP race, even if they do come out with a high MP studio camera. I've made some 17x22' prints from the D700 images, and I'm pretty happy with the image quality.

    I think the potential for this sensor for low noise and rapid RAW image acquisition is probably better than the higher MP sensors and therefore more suited for HDR.

    Hoping the lottery ticket pays off so you can bankroll the NYC weekend.

    Edited by loftus
  12. Here's my current HDR workflow ...

     

    ** Shoot brackets

    ** Import to LR 2.0

    ** Process the 0 EV with very minimal adjustments - color calibration, WB, non-liner curve, sharpening, NR

    ** Synchronize settings across bracketed shots

    ** Export to TIFF

    ** Import to Photomatix

    ** Tone Map

    ** Export

    ** Touch up in Photoshop

    ** Import into LR 2.0

     

    I would prefer to create the 32 bit image directly from the RAW files, but Photomatix's anti-ghosting and alignment seem better than C3s. Where ghosting and artifacts are less likely, I have done some of the 32 image creation in CS3.

  13. Speaking of the D3/D700, I do hope that Nikon sticks with a sensor of similar pixel size in their line up as they add video etc, and does not succumb completely to the MP race, even if they do come out with a high MP studio camera. I've made some 17x22' prints from the D700 images, and I'm pretty happy with the image quality.

     

    Would figure it would be very good. As I mentioned in another thread at some point I had decent print 16 x 20 , at a normal viewing distance, from a 3 Megapixel camera with Genuine Fractels.

     

    I think the potential for this sensor for low noise and rapid RAW image acquisition is probably better than the higher MP sensors and therefore more suited for HDR.

    Hoping the lottery ticket pays off so you can bankroll the NYC weekend.

     

     

    If I hit the big one, the weekend in NYC is off, Jeremy and I will be flying down there to go diving with you. If I hit the really big one I am buying a place in Cozumel and flying you guys down. Do not worry about luggage allowances, we will just rent a Lear Jet.** Now I am daydreaming, great :offtopic:

     

     

     

     

     

     

    **DISCLAIMER: Nothing in the post shall be construed as an offer to actually do any of these things, including actually me going out and buying a lottery ticket. For purposes of this post, the big one shall mean a net winning amount in excess of One Hundred Million Dollars and the real big one shall mean an amount of net winnings in excess of Three Hundred Million Dollars. Void where prohibited by law. No animal testing was undertaken in connection with this post.

  14. >> I do hope that Nikon sticks with a sensor of similar pixel size in their line up as they add video etc

     

    I couldn't agree more.

     

    My only complaint about the D700 is the 1EV limit on the bracketing. I really wish I could shoot 2 stop brackets ... and in theory, they could fix that with firmware.

  15. It is not nessecary to take mutiple pictures for 1 hdr. Certainly for moving objects!

     

    -Shoot RAW, let the cam show the histrogram, and push the curves to the right as much as possible! It will seem the picture is overexposed.

    -Now you can change the light parameters with the raw editor to -0.5, -1, -2, ........

    -Build your hdr (photomatix or some sort)

  16. Single image HDR is an option but is definitely not ideal; as the total image data available to the software and the photographer for manipulation is not truly increased. Of course, in attempting to push the curve to the right as much as possible (which we do routinely anyway) one takes a further risk of losing highlight information. The benefit of multi-image HDR is having more than enough data to achieve the desired result, even to the point of discarding excess and overlapping data. One of the problems one runs into with HDR as well is noise, so again, trying to coax more shadow detail out of an image by shifting the curve, will not be helpful in this regard. So yes, single image HDR can be done, but is not ideal, that's why it's often referred to as 'the poor man's HDR'.

  17. "Single image HDR" is a contradiction of terms. Any result produced by such a technique cannot contain more dynamic range that the original RAW file contained, so the "high" part of "HDR" is no higher than we already have.

     

    Using HDR techniques on a single shot can produce tone mappings that are difficult, perhaps impossible, with current raw converters using a single conversion. For that reason doing so may be useful, but don't confuse the technique for creating something that's not there. Using multiple raw conversions is nothing more than compensation for the limitations of the tools.

  18. Another term used is 'pseudo-hdr'

  19. HDR represents two things, the capture of the full dynamic range of the original scene, and the fake, overly processed and compressed look typical of many HDR images that we see. "Pseudo-HDR" is the practice of getting the bizarre look without achieving anything photographically. :)

  20. "Single image HDR" is a contradiction of terms. Any result produced by such a technique cannot contain more dynamic range that the original RAW file contained, so the "high" part of "HDR" is no higher than we already have.

     

    I tried that for fun on images using CS2 and making three copies and CS2 actually came up with a warning that there was not enough information to create a HDR image.

Turtle

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