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Spear fisherman kills tiger shark

Started by ce4jesus ·

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Spear fisherman kills tiger shark

94 posts
  1. Guys,

    Thanks for being stand-up guys and for coming on and giving us a first hand account. Since this is a discussion board on the internet, you're going to have diverse opinions. You have to admit that the circumstantial evidence seemed a bit condemning. You've got these macho guys who go after large fish in the gulf and get the occasional trophy tuna and proudly display it on a website. Combine that with the intermittent video and photos and there's a lot of gray area that leads to conjecture. You address having a podcast of the video of the first moments including the decision to spear the shark, would you consider posting that here?

  2. Yup, regardless of what any one person thinks you have to get the credit for coming up here and addressing it directly.

     

    Paul C

  3. DJ and Ryan, I am sorry if you feel members have attacked you wrongly. Based on what information there is out there, their reaction isn't unexpected, a bit quick to judge (as I was guilty of that too). I don't think it's unfair for people to interpret your images and clips though. I think all of you have to know there would be backlash as it were.

    Since you bring up chumming shark dives (which btw, I am against doing on a regular basis), you do realize that the Bahamas for example do not sell the fishing rights for the sharks because of the shark tourism? So in a way, the sharks are protecting themselves by providing a show for people. Furthermore, the science of food correlation has yet to be proven conclusively, just as my judgment that Craig Clasen didn't have to shoot the tiger shark. The effect on spearfishing on coastal reef fish population ,however, has been established via scientific and anecdotal evidence. All of this, however, is not the issue at hand.

    The point is that there are many people who dive in chum to attract big sharks for profit. Their knowledge of shark behavior is better than most others. Andre Hartman, for instance, is a spearo who doesn't even load his speargun when a few great whites are around because his experience both as a spearo and a shark dive guide gives him insights to shark behavior. It allows him to teach spearos respect for sharks and how to deal with them, by using the spear gun to fend off a shark.

    This is something I'm hoping spearos and the broader population understand, and your incident can be the additional catalyst toward that end. So I hope you don't think this is thread is about attacking your character (although I admit the tone of some of the posts (including mine) are a bit harsh). I think it's about lamenting the loss of yet another tiger shark, which in anecdotal evidence, was unnecessary. It is also to help promote better understanding of shark predation so another killing will not be necessary.

    It would awesome if you posted the video in it's entirety, especially the aggression from the tiger shark. I know a few scientists who'd love to see that.

    Again, I commend that both of you come on without subterfuge to face the mob (so to speak). However, you have to accept that there will be some negative comments regardless.

    Edited by Drew
  4. Ryan, DJ..it's great that you guys have wrote what really happened. Shows that the media can get all these stories messed in anyway they want eh? Nice of you to come on here and explain to all the members everything.

     

    Cheers

  5. Please reference numbered items below. I wanted this discussion to end but I, much like many here, must inquire further when I disagree with something.

    1. Since you bring up chumming shark dives (which btw, I am against doing on a regular basis), you do realize that the Bahamas for example do not sell the fishing rights for the sharks because of the shark tourism? So in a way, the sharks are protecting themselves by providing a show for people.

    1. So am I to surmise that these Bahamian sharks are not unlike circus or zoo animals? Maybe we can personify them like chimps or elephants with little outfits and cute names.

     

    2. Furthermore, the science of food correlation has yet to be proven conclusively, just as my judgment that Craig Clasen didn't have to shoot the tiger shark. The effect on spearfishing on coastal reef fish population ,however, has been established via scientific and anecdotal evidence. All of this, however, is not the issue at hand.

    2. I would like to see this scientific evidence, especially in reference to any other harvesting technique. The anecdotal evidence however, being the antonym of scientific, will not be necessary as it will only further contradict whatever argument it is you are attempting to make here. If it's that elasmobranchs in general do not base behavior around food sources, then why do Mantas gather around spotlights in Kona, stingrays knock masks off divers at Stingray City, and Tiger sharks follow pregnant whales only for the afterbirth? Perhaps these things are just anecdotal.

     

    3. The point is that there are many people who dive in chum to attract big sharks for profit. Their knowledge of shark behavior is better than most others. Andre Hartman, for instance, is a spearo who doesn't even load his speargun when a few great whites are around because his experience both as a spearo and a shark dive guide gives him insights to shark behavior. It allows him to teach spearos respect for sharks and how to deal with them, by using the spear gun to fend off a shark.

    I'll sum up the knowledge gained from diving with chummed animals in one sentence: Provide food source, sharks arrive, sharks don't attack people. Revolutionary! Opportunistic and specialized predators alike will always take an easier meal and avoid conflict, especially in these types of situations. Why? Because the humans have induced scavenging behavior, the fish are not hunting. Mimic a prey species if you want to see a shark acting like a shark.

     

    4. So I hope you don't think this is thread is about attacking your character (although I admit the tone of some of the posts (including mine) are a bit harsh). I think it's about lamenting the loss of yet another tiger shark, which in anecdotal evidence, was unnecessary. It is also to help promote better understanding of shark predation so another killing will not be necessary.

    4. This makes absolutely no sense at all. This thread isn't about our character but you've called me a liar? I'm not even mad, I'm amazed.

     

    5.It would awesome if you posted the video in it's entirety, especially the aggression from the tiger shark. I know a few scientists who'd love to see that.

    Again, I commend that both of you come on without subterfuge to face the mob (so to speak). However, you have to accept that there will be some negative comments regardless.

    5. Awesome??? Really? Is that some sort of sick joke? I didn't release the impact shots to the media but still get labelled as a fame seeker and now you want me to screen it HERE?!? To what end? There are 12 people that have seen that footage. Am I hiding something or attempting to save the last shred of decency toward that shark... whatever you decide it doesn't matter to me anymore. Tell your scientists we would be happy to discuss the details in depth, DJ and I are scientists also so there will be no language barrier.

     

    Shawn if you don't want me to post here anymore I understand, but I'm not going to 'hug-it-out' with each and every person that wants to take a free shot at me (Drew you happen to be the martyr on this forum, nothing personal). I've made my statement about the event, if you want to talk shark behavior I'll type until your eyes fall out from reading so much.

     

    Ryan

    Edited by ryan m
  6. Deleted previous post after reading above. Will say if the parties want to put things to rest they should release the video leading up to the initial shot.

    Edited by NWDiver
  7. ....if the parties want to put things to rest they should release the video leading up to the initial shot.

     

    Right, because obviously if he posts the entire footage, nobody would have anything more to say about the matter. Sure...

  8. Ryan

    It's obvious someone else has written you in private. Since I made several statements regarding to the incident, I thought I'd deal with it in the open in fairness to you and others.

    I don't think I'm being argumentative for the sake of arguing. I appreciate both DJ and your prescence in the forum. I'm sure you're sick of defending Craig Clasen's action and being party to it. So far, the contentious issue seems to be that you believed you were in mortal danger and the kill was justified. I disagree and it seems your conclusion about chumming sharks suports this. The sharks don't see us on the menu but are curious and will test if we are edible, this is especially true for the vacuum eaters like tigers. If it were an ambush attack, you'd be talking about the bite vs this video and the media

    I'm not calling you a liar, but my opinion is you were mistaken. I wasn't there but I've been in the ocean with tiger sharks (chummed a few times and much more often in unchummed situations) and my anecdotal observations differ from your conclusions. Hence my opinion on the matter. If saying you were mistaken is offending to you, I'm sorry, but I won't change my mind based on the evidence. The shooting, to me, was unnecessary and there were 3 of you there, with spearguns which could prod off the shark. Your own statement on shark reaction to chum supports my contention. I am not attempting to ostracize you from this community. You are allowed to have your own opinion, as am I. WP welcomes all dialogue and differing opinions.

    As to spearfishing and its effects, I'll refrain from going further off-topic in this thread. There is another discussion re: spearfishing in the following link:

    http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21835

    Feel free to discuss it there. I linked a couple of reports and there are more on google if you want to read them and discuss their merits.

    To end, the requests to post the video was a sincere request to see the behavior of the shark and discuss. I'm not asking you to justify your actions but to learn from the video. If this incident can bring out better understanding of tiger sharks and avoid another shooting, then the video and your influence in the spearo industry can be of massive influence. I welcome your participation in the forums.

    Edited by Drew
  9. Wow, thanks for the permission Drew. You still aren't using anecdotal right. And the chumming references were not intended to justify anything, only to level the playing field. I'm going to go further here than I have for any other forum/blog.

     

    When I was filming the squid they were playing with one another and hiding around my legs. I was rolling around at the surface trying to get an angle to film. This took place for over 3 minutes, I was enthralled with their beauty and behavior.

     

    Sea turtles come to the surface, breathe and warm up, maybe make a splash or two, then dive again. I was wearing camo trunks and a mimetic shirt that may have resembled a turtle carapace. Tigers have an appetite for turtles, no anecdote there, just science.

     

    With my actions and appearance, a Tiger shark could mistake me for a natural prey item. I don't know how long it was there before I turned around, and I'm surprised it did not capitalize on the opportunity for a meal earlier. But when I made eye contact and busted the stalk, it charged. Instead of fleeing, which it was likely expecting, I postured for active defense and this, I believe, saved my life.

     

    The initial charge is public, if you haven't seen it then you haven't looked. The nictitating membranes come out, fins were down and it came fast. If that's not aggressive then I'm communicating with an uninformed audience. The second time this happened it got shot. Period. Say what you want: we should have bumped it, light jab with the 1 loaded gun in the water, maybe scare it with some muy thai moves.

     

    It was there to feed and not scavenge. 36 hours we dove there with plenty of reasons for a big shark to come in and nothing. Finish the day and a Tiger poses this threat. I'm done justifying. You won't ever see the footage nor a framegrab, no one will. Regardless of what it shows someone will want to debate it, well the case is closed.

     

    I don't blame the shark... do your **** homework man! By hunting we enter the natural process and have to reckon with the consequences. That is the one factor that seperates and ostracizes modern humans from the rest of the natural world. Good luck if you ever had to fend for yourself, civilized you may call yourself but I see it oppositely. And yes that is a word.

     

    And no PM's were sent. I'm done here. Thanks Drew, there are things I might have shared to contribute to the community here but you armchair quarterbacks have never been knocked down to the grass so my time is wasted.

    Edited by ryan m
  10. Ryan

    First of all, I'll say that I have nothing against you or what you did. I think you missed my point due to my poor writing skills. I disagree with the shooting of the shark (Craig Clasen's decision), not the documentation of it (which I believe is what you were doing). I know the shark was making passes to test you as prey. That's what they do. The speed of the tiger approaching you in the video is pretty normal. Note that when you reacted it took off faster than when it came in. If the 2nd pass was anything like the first, then I stand by my assertion. I don't suggest using the speargun to prod the shark as trivial hearsay. I've seen it at work and I also have fended off sharks using my housing and fins, all at the surface. Which is why talking about this experience would be helpful, including things like staying vertical in the water when shooting and not just keeping your eye in the viewfinder. All of which I'm sure you know, but other divers may not.

    Philosophical differences aside, open dialogue and analyzing what could/should have been done before shooting the shark so as to avoid another incident like yours,can only be good. I've been referring to your video and incident because it's a case study of what could be done to avoid killing the shark. The experience of others who work with sharks is a valuable source of information to that end. I'm merely discussing what the other options are, and not trying to vilify you or DJ. It is up to you whether you wish to continue dialogue or not.

  11. Drew and WP in general,

     

    You can imagine these times have strung me out a bit and I would like to make a concise apology, not for these events but for my escalating frustraion and less than congenial candor on your forum. I do highly regard your thoughts and efforts to share and I do know that I don't have all the answers. I'm irish and analytical, I only speak when I have no doubt about what I'm saying and I'm quiet when I don't have the facts.

     

    Most, and I mean most, spearos know how to deal with sharks through mentorship and experience. If this wasn't true then there would be tenfold more predator fatalities associated with the activity and it would have a poorer reputation than it does. I can't count the number of times I've passively interacted and also actively discouraged sharks of many types. I dive North Carolina, the highest biodiversity of chondricthyes in the world... and the visibilty usually sucks. We rotate dive sites, know how to posture, bump on occasion, exit the water often... but mainly just enjoy sharing the water with all animals. If we were any other way then where would that leave us 10 years from now?

     

    I will let this rest here for now but will keep you all updated on any developments. Outside will be doing a conservation conscious follow-up and my next podcast will be a compilation homage of all the sharks I've filmed across the globe with a positive message. It's a start at least.

     

    Safe diving and good lighting,

    Ryan McInnis

  12. Ryan, for my part, there's no need to apologize to me. I understand the duress you've been under.

    I do think that it merits examining the basic different views of spearos vs photogs.

    Photogs go into the sea with nothing to protect themselves except a shiny housing ( which, according to some, actually attracts shark attention). For those who dive in chummed dives, they should know and accept the risks involved. In fact the photog wants the shark to be close as to get better shots. The concern of conditioning doesn't really matter as the shark encounters are encouraged rather than discouraged. Obviously, accidents happen and humans being so fragile, the possibility of severe injury or death in encounters is very prominent. Strangely though, most participants accept that risk and do not dive with powerhead spearguns or shark shields.

    Spearos, on the other hand, are in the water to hunt fish, and this activity brings them in contact with sharks. Many of them will fight for a fish kill against any predator. Some hang fish around their waist and thus have a different personal space distance than photogs. Many a spearo truly believe in the Pavlov conditioning and would fight off sharks rather than surrender their catch, believing the sharks will frenzy and be more dangerous, and worse, will be conditioned to hearing the click of a speargun and associate it with mealtime. That, the need to protect the catch and the fact the catch could be on their persons means the tolerance for shark encounters are lower. For a few, even the need to project humans as alpha creatures to sharks makes them want to fend the sharks off aggressively.

    The very fact that a photog has no speargun to shoot puts them in a better position to not harm the shark. Armed with a housing as the only defence, the encounters tend to be well within the 2ft range with big sharks. I can only speak for myself in that my heart pounds pretty hard when I'm encircled by C.Brachyurus, Limbatus, Leucas, Obscurus or G Cuvier. My encounters are often in natural feeding conditions so the sharks are pretty riled up. They've charged at me at good speed but break off when I react with my housing. I'm sure anyone who's done the Aliwal Shoal dives know how the C. Limbatus take snaps at fins frequently.

    If one goes through forums like spearboard.com, there are quite a few stories of people admitting to using powerheads or spearing sharks in self-defence or to protect their catch. So the phenomena does apparently happen.

    The higher tolerance of photogs to close encounters with big sharks does give pause for spearos to think whether their comfort levels are too low. It is up to the individual to decide for themselves but the examples of photogs experiencing very close encounters with big sharks in similar circumstances (chummed water) hopefully will give spearos some food for thought.

    Better yet are examples of spearos who champion shark conservation like Andre Hartman. His work with C. Carcharias and the very close encounters he has with them speaks volumes about what can be learnt.

    In my observation of tiger sharks feed, they tend to circle and test bite cautiously in the beginning. This was my observation with a dead green turtle carcass in Oz. My own experience in water with big sharks is that they will tend to approach from behind for such test bumps. They also tend to back off once discovered and there is a threatening reaction. I've only gotten up to 5 runs before the boat arrived to haul my butt out of the water. 3 of them were very similar to what was depicted in Ryan's video.

    I'm wondering if anyone else can share their experiences with tiger sharks, especially when they are deemed as aggressive.

  13. I've been following this thread, and refrained from participating, because one hates to second guess someone when I wasn't there.

    I do not consider myself a highly experienced shark diver, but I have spent 5 (or maybe 6) days at Tiger Beach with anywhere from 1 to 12 Tigers in the water at one time. Having been literally bowled over by big Emma, and hundreds of bumps up against my rig, nips at strobes etc, I have to say that nothing I have seen in the videos related to this thread indicate that this Tiger was behaving any more aggressively than what I have experienced, and if the type of behavior shown was considered aggressive enough to fight back and kill a shark, there would be no Tigers left at Tiger Beach. I will admit though, if I had not been fortunate enough to have this experience at Tiger Beach, I would probably be a lot more spooked by the encounter shown in the video.

    So unfortunately I still have to conclude from what I have seen that this is an unfortunate incident that is understandable, but probably did not have to happen. If the divers had experienced more close encounters with Tigers, I feel certain they may have given this individual the benefit of the doubt, and been able to get out of the water safely. I'm still puzzled as well by the fight to the death part, maybe leave an injured animal, that possibly has a chance to recover. One also has to ask the question, if faced with the same situation again, would they do the same thing again.

    Edited by loftus
  14. Leaving it wounded wasn't an option

    Jeff

    Ryan's quote was based on the ethos among some spearos to keep whatever they shoot (not waste), and also never to leave a fish injured (which is also wasting). We should note that only Craig Clasen shot the shark. Ryan and DJ were just recording the event.

    I think the bigger risk Craig took was to finish the tiger after he shot it once. Most spearos will agree that one spear is enough to scare off the shark. Finishing it off is just part of the sport code for some spearos.

    Edited by Drew
  15. Jeff

    Ryan's quote was based on the ethos among some spearos to keep whatever they shoot (not waste), and also never to leave a fish injured (which is also wasting). We should note that only Craig Clasen shot the shark. Ryan and DJ were just recording the event.

    I think the bigger risk Craig took was to finish the tiger after he shot it once. Most spearos will agree that one spear is enough to scare off the shark. Finishing it off is just part of the sport code for some spearos.

    I guess that would make the point that once the decision was made to engage the animal, the object was to kill not deter.

  16. Yes well, some other spearos also follow this principle:

    http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread...highlight=shark

     

    When you are shooting fish, the mentality is totally different for some. Same thing for some photogs who have no regard for sealife for the shot. Or any other inconsiderate act for that matter.

     

    In that pic that Ce4jesus linked, that is the shark that Ryan mentioned Roberto Reyes shot. Their story is here:

    http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=21397

     

    The mentality is definitely different from photogs, judging from those posts. While many photogs accept the risk of getting bitten with these close encounters, some spearos seem to consider it turf defense and a fight for dominance. Obviously those threads don't represent all spearos and I'm not linking posting those posts to judge them, just merely show the different mentality. It'd be interesting to open dialogue with them and see what we can learn from each other. I'd hope that given the choice, most spearos would choose not to kill a shark and show a higher tolerance of encounter space before pulling the trigger. It's the experience of close encounters without a speargun to create that aggression that allows photogs to stay calm. And also the obsession of looking through the VF all the time. LOL.

  17. It was there to feed and not scavenge. 36 hours we dove there with plenty of reasons for a big shark to come in and nothing. Finish the day and a Tiger poses this threat. I'm done justifying. You won't ever see the footage nor a framegrab, no one will. Regardless of what it shows someone will want to debate it, well the case is closed.

     

    Ryan M

     

    If you and the "spearo" have nothing to hide then why are you hiding the "smoking gun"? I dont think too many people will debate it if the footage does show an aggressive, charging shark. Sure, once in the water you are in the sharks territory. But if the two guys in question felt so bad about killing the shark why the photo with the shark and the big grins? If you guys want your 15 minutes why not just tell a decent lie at least. To say you battled an aggressive shark for 2 hours seems a bit ridiculous to start with. Sure grabbed the spotlight tho.

    Edited by Drew
  18. "Seven":

     

    I'm not sure why you have to resort to calling these guys liars. DJ and Ryan - who were brave enough to wade into a pretty hostile forum to tell their side of the story - deserve more respect than you have shown.

     

    I don't think I agree with Craig's decision to kill the shark, but I wasn't there and I certainly don't have cause to question DJ and Ryan's integrity or their honesty.

     

    Stick to writing emails to PETA.

  19. One little anecdote; hopefully to add to the discussion. About 2 1/2 years ago I was on a spearo boat out of Fort Myers to the Dry Tortugas and Marquesas. I was the only photog out of 16 people. These were drift dives, and talk about diving alone. When the boat stopped; the captain came over the intercom and said 'Kill' which was the signal that the pool was open. Spearos dived off the boat in every direction, so for the 45-55 minute dive you were pretty much alone. When surfacing we would often have a 20-30 minute wait on the surface while the boat went around in a big circle picking up the dispersed divers. On one dive I hung out with my friend John, a dive shop owner and avid hunter, above and below the water. He bagged a couple of hogfish and a grouper or so on the dive, and we were doing our safety stop when an interested bullshark started circling us. Being the good buddy that I am I backed off pretty rapidly, expecting my friend to drop his catch bag and let the bull have a free lunch. No such thing! Under no circumstances was he going to surrender his catch, and when the bull came in to try to take his bag on two occasions, he prodded the guy off with his spear, and the bull eventually left. Needless to say I was not a happy camper floating on the surface for 20 minutes or so waiting for the boat to pick us up. When I spoke to John about it afterwards ( He is in his fifties and has been doing this for years) he was surprised that I would even think that he would relinquish his catch, and said this type of thing had happened to him a number of times over the years.

    Interestingly he does not really approve of the shark chumming photog trips that I do.

    Edited by loftus
  20. But if the two guys in question felt so bad about killing the shark why the photo with the shark and the big grins? If you guys want your 15 minutes why not just tell a decent lie at least. To say you battled an aggressive shark for 2 hours seems a bit ridiculous to start with. Sure grabbed the spotlight tho.

     

    Seven,

    If you'd read more carefully through this thread, you would have learned that the photo of the two grinning spearfishermen and their catch is unrelated to this particular event. TWO DIFFERENT SHARKS.

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