Challenges of shooting photos and HDR videos with Sony A1(Ax?) cameras and Shinobi external monitor underwater

[RomiK]

nullThis setup is 14kg air and 0 underwater. So you might think that by the challenge I meant the back hurt by transporting it topside. Partially truth 🙂

 

The challenge I had in mind lies in clean HDMI output and HDR capabilities of Shinobi screen. It's 10bit 1000nits HDR display and as such it allows me to preview and tweak exposure of Slog3 footage coming out the camera in PQ mode and really really push it in terms of sunball against the light water surface shots. Can't wait to try it out. 

 

Because of that I have to have monitor set accepting Slog3 from the camera and display it in PQ color space. And there is no access to monitor settings underwater when in housing. Which also means that when I am shooting stills I have to shoot them with PP9 (Slog3) profile. Because the monitor treats incoming HDMI like I told it to and when sending signal without PP the result is unwatchable. So far in my research and tests show that it doesn't appear to be a big problem - well lit scenes have almost identical color saturation and underwater I don't care much about shadows in which - topside - I found less color saturation compared to shooting without picture profile. (yes we still talk raw files).

 

Interesting enough Sony A1 produces identical grain for pictures shot ISO 8000 shot without PP and ISO80000 in pictures shot with PP9 Slog3 profile. Also no difference in saturations in these high ISO. It were low ISO like 100 no PP and 800 PP9 where I found those differences.

 

Off course I could not use PP for stills and switch to control display in HDMI output setting but then I would loose benefits of using amazing Shinobi HDR screen... Plus time switching it...

 

Decision decision... 

[Guest]

Sony slog3 produces a heavily underexposed raw files because raw is linear and slog3 is logarithmic 

on the A1 this is 3 stops 

in addition the hdmi port has at least 150ms lag from reality 

i shoot video with the evf as I cant stand the lag topside or underwater unless I am shooting talking heads and set scenes

[RomiK]

8 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Sony slog3 produces a heavily underexposed raw files because raw is linear and slog3 is logarithmic 

on the A1 this is 3 stops 

Off course you have to compensate for that. Same applies for video although stills you can push a bit more. Video like 1.7 stops. That's like a basic rule but I might add that the correct way of exposing Slog is using waveforms or other tools available (sadly A1 does not have these built in) and external monitor allows just that.

8 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

 

in addition the hdmi port has at least 150ms lag from reality 

i shoot video with the evf as I cant stand the lag topside or underwater unless I am shooting talking heads and set scenes

HDMI lag is really not an issue, for me like unnoticeable. But switching among the modes - takes ages. I am used to do like getting an eagle ray shot, then switch to movie mode and while the ray sticks around I swim with it in parallel and make a nice movie segment (can't do this with a viewfinder btw). Now I will have to time it better or shoot blind first couple seconds.

 

P.S. For admins - I named this thread wrong, it was supposed to be a Monitor and not Viewfinder in the heading 🙈 - if admin could change this to accommodate forum search function? thx

Edited March 7 by RomiK

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, RomiK said:

Off course you have to compensate for that. Same applies for video although stills you can push a bit more. Video like 1.7 stops. That's like a basic rule but I might add that the correct way of exposing Slog is using waveforms or other tools available (sadly A1 does not have these built in) and external monitor allows just that.

HDMI lag is really not an issue, for me like unnoticeable. But switching among the modes - takes ages. I am used to do like getting an eagle ray shot, then switch to movie mode and while the ray sticks around I swim with it in parallel and make a nice movie segment (can't do this with a viewfinder btw). Now I will have to time it better or shoot blind first couple seconds.

 

P.S. For admins - I named this thread wrong, it was supposed to be a Monitor and not Viewfinder in the heading 🙈 - if admin could change this to accommodate forum search function? thx

I dont think you understand what I said when you shoot with picture profiles the camera raw exposure is off 3 stops in vlog this is how the camera implements it try to shoot a grey card

in essence do not use picture profiles 

second there is no point using waveform as those as well are tools for video 

if you really want to use vlog you need to use a lut in photoshop this is not worth it after all because if you shoot with flash you don’t even use live view

in my opinion using a monitor as viewfinder gives more problems than opportunities is expensive and not streamlined

[RomiK]

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

I dont think you understand what I said when you shoot with picture profiles the camera raw exposure is off 3 stops in vlog this is how the camera implements it try to shoot a grey card

in essence do not use picture profiles 

second there is no point using waveform as those as well are tools for video 

if you really want to use vlog you need to use a lut in photoshop this is not worth it after all because if you shoot with flash you don’t even use live view

in my opinion using a monitor as viewfinder gives more problems than opportunities is expensive and not streamlined

 

Did you ever try to shoot pictures in Slog3 a process them in Lightroom... just go outside, take three shots, one no PP and two with Slog3 at 0EV and +2EV and see it for yourself... use standard Adobe color and report any differences you could spot 🙂  I shot like 6000 images over the past year and half with A1 underwater, with and without profiles, with and without flash so no need to mentor here 🙂 No need for LUTs when developing stills. For video yes, LUTs are essential but that's the point to shoot in log. In a sense there is no avenue to produce HDR footage without recording in LOG format save for HLG which has limited color grading options. But being a professional if you say you shoot talking heads you already know this. As for the benefits of external monitor - "one man's truth is another man's bias" 🙂 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, RomiK said:

 

Did you ever try to shoot pictures in Slog3 a process them in Lightroom... just go outside, take three shots, one no PP and two with Slog3 at 0EV and +2EV and see it for yourself... use standard Adobe color and report any differences you could spot 🙂  I shot like 6000 images over the past year and half with A1 underwater, with and without profiles, with and without flash so no need to mentor here 🙂 No need for LUTs when developing stills. For video yes, LUTs are essential but that's the point to shoot in log. In a sense there is no avenue to produce HDR footage without recording in LOG format save for HLG which has limited color grading options. But being a professional if you say you shoot talking heads you already know this. As for the benefits of external monitor - "one man's truth is another man's bias" 🙂 

Yes I did its a mess hence am saying this is not the way forward

a monitor may be useful for video where you shoot with ambient light

for shots with strobes is an unnecessary expensive and bulky complication 

in addition the camera doesn’t really work well with a video monitor in 3:2

aspect ratio and the whole black bars

ruin everything 

i am sorry am crushing your dream I have looked into this for years even topside the only benefit is a larger screen for review. But the A1 high rez

evf is better and the nauticam viewfinder have optical correction

Even for video I find monitors of limited use for photos are a total no go

i am going to leave this thread

as I am sure there will be millions of arguments I dont want to reply to

my advice sell it

[RomiK]

10 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Yes I did its a mess hence am saying this is not the way forward

a monitor may be useful for video where you shoot with ambient light

for shots with strobes is an unnecessary expensive and bulky complication 

in addition the camera doesn’t really work well with a video monitor in 3:2

aspect ratio and the whole black bars

ruin everything 

i am sorry am crushing your dream I have looked into this for years even topside the only benefit is a larger screen for review. But the A1 high rez

evf is better and the nauticam viewfinder have optical correction

Even for video I find monitors of limited use for photos are a total no go

i am going to leave this thread

as I am sure there will be millions of arguments I dont want to reply to

my advice sell it

 it's a bit low to trash something just because you don't/can't have it 🤣 I will say your view of the world is quite narrow and you don't hesitate to push it through so strong person there 🤣 You really need to play with your new camera to understand it better 🤙

 

For others who would like to see example of stills with flash in Slog3 here is a boring picture from The Boiler divesite of Socorro with its raw, processed, 100% and 800% crops, and some other more attractive shots from Cabo Pearce, you can judge the feasibility of taking stills with log profile for yourself. These are mixed scenes where flash is used to just fill in and we also need to recover some colors and contrast in the background in post. The lens is a video lens as the subject of this thread talks something about true hybrid shooting 🤙

 

[RomiK]

Playing more with the setup and coming back to the original purpose of this thread - which I started in order to give something back to the community and not to bicker out personalized opinions.

 

I should probably change the name to challenges with Shinobi and A1 when hybrid shooting 🙂 

 

The lag in between modes changing I mentioned earlier - as long as Sony doesn't change the signal out there is no lag and changes between still and movie mode on the monitor are instant. Or when shooting movies from still mode - also instant.

 

When Sony changes signal out? When set to auto and movie is set to anything else then 60 or 120 fps - simplified.

 

Shinobi is limited to 4k30 input. It's HD screen only anyway. So there is no reason why not to set HDMI out on Sony to 1080p only.

 

Still modes PASM send HDMI signal out at 4k30 (auto) or 1080p60 if set.

 

Movie mode sends signal out up to 4k30 (auto) or at 1080p60 if set UNLESS you decide the shoot at 24fps

 

So what is the best practice for hybrid shooting and fast switching between modes? Set HDMI out to 1080p and avoid shooting movies in 24fps like a plague. All other frame rates and resolutions will be sent out as 1080p60 and so Shinobi will not change signal input and all changes will be instant. Good luck in selecting your monitor and camera 🙂 

[Davide DB]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:43 AM, RomiK said:

Shinobi is limited to 4k30 input. It's HD screen only anyway. So there is no reason why not to set HDMI out on Sony to 1080p only.

 

This is the rule #1 when using an external monitor with any camera. Disabling audio channels on hdmi output gives me a zero lag on my GH5 and GH5M2. Same for my buddy with a GH5S. We both shot only video and i wish I could have a 1000 nits Shinobi

 

I did not understand anything about the problem with Slog PP because I do not use Sony and I don't take photos 😇

 

Shooting video underwater without an external monitor severely limits the ability to edit the image composition and in some cases it is simply impossible to shoot certain footage without damaging the surroundings. This is the pure and simple reality.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

 

This is the rule #1 when using an external monitor with any camera. Disabling audio channels on hdmi output gives me a zero lag on my GH5 and GH5M2. Same for my buddy with a GH5S. We both shot only video and i wish I could have a 1000 nits Shinobi

 

I did not understand anything about the problem with Slog PP because I do not use Sony and I don't take photos 😇

 

Shooting video underwater without an external monitor severely limits the ability to edit the image composition and in some cases it is simply impossible to shoot certain footage without damaging the surroundings. This is the pure and simple reality.

 

GH5 also has lag but less when using 1080p 

the panasonic camera HDMI lags around 3 frames at 60fps that is 50ms

sony has an interesting but failing concept 

if you have clean hdmi it outputs on the lcd a viewfinder screen in still mode however in video this is not available which is a mess

when you take photo in that mode you don’t know where the camera is focussing which is brilliant 

you put the hdmi display on and turns the lcd off

who designed this is should be punished!

 

[Guest]

On 3/8/2024 at 7:25 AM, RomiK said:

 it's a bit low to trash something just because you don't/can't have it 🤣 I will say your view of the world is quite narrow and you don't hesitate to push it through so strong person there 🤣 You really need to play with your new camera to understand it better 🤙

 

For others who would like to see example of stills with flash in Slog3 here is a boring picture from The Boiler divesite of Socorro with its raw, processed, 100% and 800% crops, and some other more attractive shots from Cabo Pearce, you can judge the feasibility of taking stills with log profile for yourself. These are mixed scenes where flash is used to just fill in and we also need to recover some colors and contrast in the background in post. The lens is a video lens as the subject of this thread talks something about true hybrid shooting 🤙

 

Log profiles are not for stills

They are there to compress dynamic range in a 10 bit container

the

resulting raw files are linear and the iso values are off.

800 is 100 

3200 is 400

as the sony cameras can already show clipping putting zebra to 109% without picture profile there is no benefit using slog for photos

when you use flash the meter is anyway incorrect so it does not matter at all what the monitor does

as you can get all the information you need from the camera evf to shoot photos a monitor is not necessary you wont get anything you dont have already but you will have a more bulky set up with more point of failures

for video with continuous light slog3 is definitely an option however after several hours of shooting am not totally convinced is required as underwater scenes except sunburst have low dynamic range but have not given up on it yet

so my question to you is why would you use slog or hlg when you already have the information on the clipping point?

on top the shinobi is

1000 nits but the pq hdr is fake the monitor doesn’t have sufficient contrast ratio

the whole thing is bs from atomos

better to watch the screen in rec709 at least the exposure tools work properly though as i said you dont need them 

Edited March 10 by Interceptor121

[Guest]

@Davide DB the title

of this thread should be challenges using an hdmi monitor on Sony cameras when switching between video and photos

it has nothing to do with true hybrid shooting

the problem of the op is that those genius at sony dont apply a lut to hdmi output and the op cant select the lut or input type on the monitor 

nothing more complicated 

i had not realised of this problem myself as I dont use a monitor for photos

by the way the solution is to use the evf because that has a correction for the slog built in and forget the monitor altogether 

if the atomos housint has a button for lut selection it would not be an issue

[Davide DB]

Do you mean you can't set an output LUT on hdmi? Only in photos or also in video?

Btw now all monitors have the possibility to load LUTs. If you can't do it via the housing, you have to set it on land. Of course you then work like this for the whole dive.

 

I will change the title at the request of the op if necessary.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Do you mean you can't set an output LUT on hdmi? Only in photos or also in video?

Btw now all monitors have the possibility to load LUTs. If you can't do it via the housing, you have to set it on land. Of course you then work like this for the whole dive.

 

I will change the title at the request of the op if necessary.

On sony there is no in camera lut support however the display can be corrected but this doesn’t apply to hdmi

if you use the monitor to take photos and switch between photos and videos and the housing doesn’t give access to lut selection you have the issue of the op

is a sony problem Panasonic doesn’t have it

in addition on sony you cant display the camera settings on lcd and have clean output on hdmi another gem

[Davide DB]

2 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

On sony there is no in camera lut support however the display can be corrected but this doesn’t apply to hdmi

if you use the monitor to take photos and switch between photos and videos and the housing doesn’t give access to lut selection you have the issue of the op

is a sony problem Panasonic doesn’t have it

in addition on sony you cant display the camera settings on lcd and have clean output on hdmi another gem

 

Really a deal breaker for me. I'm curious if this "gem" is a design failure on the A1 or applies to A7x line and cinema line FX.

 

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00120915

 

Edit: I see that latest FW update for FX3 added the possibility to view LUTs via HDMI with an endless caveat list:

 

[RomiK]

25 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

 

Really a deal breaker for me. I'm curious if this "gem" is a design failure on the A1 or applies to A7x line and cinema line FX.

 

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00120915

 

Edit: I see that latest FW update for FX3 added the possibility to view LUTs via HDMI with an endless caveat list:

 

 Yes, FX3 seems to address this issue somewhat however it is meant for strict video creators - to use the LUT preview on camera rig whether they have monitor attached or not. BUT the issue is HDR and 10bit. Since the camera monitor is not HDR it will show anything meaningful only in 709 conversion... But the beauty of Shinobi is that it is true 10bit HDR screen... so to preview HDR content you need to use external monitor and HDR LUT anyway which means you would see squat on built-in monitor. However Shinobi could be set to native input and output which would mean if FX3 can shoot pictures and with flash and monitor it could be a true hybrid HDR rig although 12MPix stills only. I am sensing A7Siii has the same problem as A1.

[RomiK]

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Do you mean you can't set an output LUT on hdmi? Only in photos or also in video?

Btw now all monitors have the possibility to load LUTs. If you can't do it via the housing, you have to set it on land. Of course you then work like this for the whole dive.

 

I will change the title at the request of the op if necessary.

Yes, please, digging this deeper it appears the thread should read "Challenges of shooting photos and HDR videos with Sony A1(Ax?) cameras and Shinobi external monitor underwater."  As I just tried my R6 Canon for example deals with monitor differently.

 

As for LUTs you can definitely load custom LUT on Shinobi however in my eyes best representation of Gamut is given by converting SLog3 to PQ in monitor. I get an idea what's recorded and whatever I do with it in post is up2me. SGamut has wider space than HLG than 709 so information is there and however I clip it is - again - up to me.

 

I find this valuable because - especially in video - the ability to see what I record is important to my artistic desires 🙂 . Imagine sunballs, all these dreamy shots with water above etc... rec709 monitor or viewfinder just won't cut it 🙂  

Edited March 11 by RomiK

[RomiK]

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

 

in addition on sony you cant display the camera settings on lcd and have clean output on hdmi another gem

Not true. On Sony if you select HDMI info display off you get all shootings information on the camera monitor and clean HDMI on external monitor.  So you can preview beautiful 10bit image on external monitor. Unfortunately - as you also found out - there is no way to change Shinobi setting underwater meaning once I set it co convert Slog3 Sgamut for display I have to feed it with Slog3 Sgamut all the time including stills. Or I could forget about stills, they will end up ok anyway and just get used to a little contrasty oversaturated look of them underwater knowing that they will turn up perfect in post.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, RomiK said:

Not true. On Sony if you select HDMI info display off you get all shootings information on the camera monitor and clean HDMI on external monitor.  So you can preview beautiful 10bit image on external monitor. Unfortunately - as you also found out - there is no way to change Shinobi setting underwater meaning once I set it co convert Slog3 Sgamut for display I have to feed it with Slog3 Sgamut all the time including stills. Or I could forget about stills, they will end up ok anyway and just get used to a little contrasty oversaturated look of them underwater knowing that they will turn up perfect in post.

You dont understand what I mean

The LCD will also display the footage you are shooting not just the settings as Panasonic does this has three implications

1. the control display are tiny as they are buried in the screen

2. You start notice that the HDMI has a lag...

3. The battery usage is more

 

You do not need HDR monitoring. Even topside nobody does that everybody monitors in rec709, underwater with a decent monitor and hood 10 stops of a good rec709 monitor is sufficient

In addition no atomos monitor has more than 10 stops anyway it is a bit of a fluke what they do and their PQ display is incorrect

Atomos display contrast ratio 1000:1 log2(1000)=9.96 which is SDR

It is bright but does not have actual HDR capabilities

Edited March 11 by Interceptor121

[RomiK]

16 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

You dont understand what I mean

The LCD will also display the footage you are shooting not just the settings as Panasonic does this has three implications

1. the control display are tiny as they are buried in the screen

2. You start notice that the HDMI has a lag...

3. The battery usage is more

 

You do not need HDR monitoring. Even topside nobody does that everybody monitors in rec709, underwater with a decent monitor and hood 10 stops of a good rec709 monitor is sufficient

In addition no atomos monitor has more than 10 stops anyway it is a bit of a fluke what they do and their PQ display is incorrect

 

Again, not quite true, Sony's monitor off course can show info or even a blank screen only. So if anything I would save on battery should I choose this display. But then I also like to see the confirmation of a focus point... 

 

As for HDR monitor usability I think it's a bit personal taste - if shooting something mechanically, like talking heads or fast moving skateboards from below then yes, monitor is just monitor and I need to see shapes. But if I am judging in real time how would certain scenario turn up and which exposure to give to it, like water reflection, sunballs etc then I find ability to see HDR quite valuable. Different tools for different needs but underwater we only have one to use 🙂 

 

Edited March 11 by RomiK

[RomiK]

For reference here is image with picture profile OFF displayed on Shinobi set for Slog3 input... Not ideal but also not too bad

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, RomiK said:

 

Again, not quite true, Sony's monitor off course can show info or even a blank screen only. So if anything I would save on battery should I choose this display. But then I also like to see the confirmation of a focus point... 

 

As for HDR monitor usability I think it's a bit personal taste - if shooting something mechanically, like talking heads or fast moving skateboards from below then yes, monitor is just monitor and I need to see shapes. But if I am judging in real time how would certain scenario turn up and which exposure to give to it, like water reflection, sunballs etc then I find ability to see HDR quite valuable. Different tools for different needs but underwater we only have one to use 🙂 

 

That display option is not available in video mode where it would be useful so I am afraid I am right 

In photo mode this option is not useful as the camera already has the exposure tools required and you shoot raw

i have both the shinobi and ninja they work exactly the same in rec709 mode with a lut

the hdr modes only pump up the brightness dont have more DR

atomos is a company that has very poor transparency of what their devices actually can do

 

Edited March 11 by Interceptor121

[RomiK]

10 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

That display option is not available in video mode So I am afraid Inam right 

in photo mode is not useful as the camera already has the exposure tools

requires and you shoot raw

i have both the shinobi and ninja they work exactly the same in rec709 mode with a lut

the hdr modes only pump up the brightness dont have more DR

atomos is a company that has very poor transparency of what their devices actually can do

You are right re:display, I didn't notice I was in still mode when checking it out. But it's not that I would use more battery, I just don't save any plus as I said I like focus confirmation.

 

As for displays - see and judge it for yourself. Rec.709 vs PQ conversion... the blinds in light...  and look at the waveforms for signal strengths although the picture may seem uneven exposure but maybe I do something wrong still learning a bit

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, RomiK said:

You are right re:display, I didn't notice I was in still mode when checking it out. But it's not that I would use more battery, I just don't save any plus as I said I like focus confirmation.

 

As for displays - see and judge it for yourself. Rec.709 vs PQ conversion... the blinds in light...  and look at the waveforms for signal strengths although the picture may seem uneven exposure but maybe I do something wrong still learning a bit

atomos displays is consistently off

Use the Sony LUT and load and then you see what the camera LCD shows which is fine for monitoring

Never use Atomos native tools they are absolutely off any use

[RomiK]

8 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

atomos displays is consistently off

Use the Sony LUT and load and then you see what the camera LCD shows which is fine for monitoring

Never use Atomos native tools they are absolutely off any use

Not quite agree there... here is Sony LUT for HDR conversion... it shows less information in highlights than PQ. To choose PQ to view does not mean I am going to deliver PQ. I am going to grade HLG. But since I have no option to reshoot or work with lights underwater I need to know the most information I could what am I recording. So empirically PQ conversion of Sgamut shows the most truthful image of what is being recorded and that is important to me.

 

Edit: this image taken several minutes after first two and sun is going down so... doesn't change anything on the why PQ is better then Sony LUTs to review. Just explaining a bit different image

Edited March 11 by RomiK