atus Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 I can' understand why nobody consider the Subtronic strobes. Made in Germany, with the service in Germany, great light quality with circular light tube, 160 wat/sec and lithium batterry pack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreiFish Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 11 hours ago, atus said: I can' understand why nobody consider the Subtronic strobes. Made in Germany, with the service in Germany, great light quality with circular light tube, 160 wat/sec and lithium batterry pack. I would certainly consider them. Seems U.S. distribution is a bit lacking though, so probably easier to source in the E.U. than North America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makar0n Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 16 hours ago, atus said: I can' understand why nobody consider the Subtronic strobes. Made in Germany, with the service in Germany, great light quality with circular light tube, 160 wat/sec and lithium batterry pack. Well manufacturer having a website in English would maybe help to spread the word, otherwise it's a Germ secret 😉 ... Like Heinrichs Weikamp - your average non-Germ diver (especially non-European one) has never even heard the name or knows that they do dive computers 😂 These do look fancy, curious indeed how they compare especially that often specs seem to quite a very low guide number, for example 270W power but only 22 GN - could this be measured in water vs in air for others ? Suffers from integrated battery with proprietary charger and lack of built in fiber optic connector though - need a special optical adapter it seems. EDIT: Found an inside picture and maybe batteries can at least be changed by the user (i.e no battery pack per se; if not soldered) - question is how easy it is to take this apart without sending for service. Edited July 15 by makar0n 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 Here in Italy they are well known and were considered expensive. There is a technician here in Italy who can change batteries and service them at very low prices. He recently modified a couple for a friend of mine, making them fibre-optic compatible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makar0n Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 4 hours ago, Davide DB said: ...and were considered expensive. ...Retra entered the room 🤣 4 hours ago, Davide DB said: ... making them fibre-optic compatible. o_0...does that technician have a website ? Mod Q: Maybe we should split these posts into a Subtronic specific thread? Just not to litter @DreiFish strobe comparison 😉 Edited July 15 by makar0n 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, makar0n said: o_0...does that technician have a website ? No only direct contact via Whatsapp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makar0n Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, Davide DB said: No only direct contact via Whatsapp... Real insider tip then 😉 Any chance you have pics after the mod ? Curious how it looks. I have also found the below, unsure how it attaches though. https://heinrichsweikamp.com/index.php/accessories/digital-adapter.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 42 minutes ago, makar0n said: Real insider tip then 😉 Any chance you have pics after the mod ? Curious how it looks. I have also found the below, unsure how it attaches though. https://heinrichsweikamp.com/index.php/accessories/digital-adapter.html The link doesn't seem to work? I had a Heinrich Weikamp TTL convertor around 2010. Cracking piece of kit! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I don't want to talk nonsense because I don't understand anything about underwater photography. He has two Subtronic flashes. A couple of them he had modified by the guy I was telling you about and a couple he used these adapters sold directly by Subtronic. In the end he's happy with them and says they're not worth modifying. Manual contro only of course. https://www.subtronic.de/produkte/Optocontrol-Sklavenblitzausloeser.66325.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makar0n Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, TimG said: The link doesn't seem to work? I had a Heinrich Weikamp TTL convertor around 2010. Cracking piece of kit! Hmm works fine here? (image below, for some reason its always at the bottom of the post) 28 minutes ago, Davide DB said: I don't want to talk nonsense because I don't understand anything about underwater photography. He has two Subtronic flashes. A couple of them he had modified by the guy I was telling you about and a couple he used these adapters sold directly by Subtronic. In the end he's happy with them and says they're not worth modifying. Manual contro only of course. https://www.subtronic.de/produkte/Optocontrol-Sklavenblitzausloeser.66325.php Thanks. Yeah saw those on Subtronic page, but they look like big things sticking out once connected to the port....was wondering if there is some other way 😉 (image for Tim's reply) Edited July 15 by makar0n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atus Posted July 15 Author Share Posted July 15 Well, it's true that the website only in german doesn't help. But it must be me, spanish, that I am used to translating all te sites from german, english, french...because in this little underwater photography world nobody seems to care about about spaniards. It doesn't matter, I speak english. Anyway, Subtronic have always answer in english to my emails in english. About the GN, it's not a number anyone can trust, I only trust in watt/sec. There are many ways to calculate that GN, in land, in water, with an snooot, without. In watts/sec there is no possible confusion. That said, the Subtronic 160 pro it's way smaller than a Retra Pro, and comparing with my partners with Retra only 1/2 point of difference as much in terms of power, better the Retra. The battery it's not inside the strobe, they are external connected by wire, and you can choose between an strobe arm-battery or a battery which you insert in the neopren cover. One unit with no accesories is worth 880 euros vat incluided https://www.subtronic.de/produkte/Pro160-ohne-Zubehoer.07966.php Add about 500 euros in accesories per strobe and you will be so far from retras with almost the same performance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreiFish Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, atus said: Well, it's true that the website only in german doesn't help. But it must be me, spanish, that I am used to translating all te sites from german, english, french...because in this little underwater photography world nobody seems to care about about spaniards. It doesn't matter, I speak english. Anyway, Subtronic have always answer in english to my emails in english. About the GN, it's not a number anyone can trust, I only trust in watt/sec. There are many ways to calculate that GN, in land, in water, with an snooot, without. In watts/sec there is no possible confusion. That said, the Subtronic 160 pro it's way smaller than a Retra Pro, and comparing with my partners with Retra only 1/2 point of difference as much in terms of power, better the Retra. The battery it's not inside the strobe, they are external connected by wire, and you can choose between an strobe arm-battery or a battery which you insert in the neopren cover. One unit with no accesories is worth 880 euros vat incluided https://www.subtronic.de/produkte/Pro160-ohne-Zubehoer.07966.php Add about 500 euros in accesories per strobe and you will be so far from retras with almost the same performance. Interesting Atus -- size and price wise, I always assumed that the Subtronic 160s were very similar to the Seacam 160Ds. The published dimensions, 70mm x 180mm make the length almost identical to the Seacams, but slightly narrower. 740g weight is great (I guess they left out the battery weight in the arm), but the -190g negative boyancy is.. bad. The power sounds like the real issue though. I haven't tested the Retras in my comparison, but Backscatter has them rated at GN22. If the Subtronic 160s are a half stop less bright, that's pretty unimpressive. It put them in the same camp as the Inon S-220s, and 1 1/2 stops less bright than the Sea & Sea YS-D3s that are smaller, lighter (especially when you account for battery weight in the arm), and almost neutral in the water. So.. they're ok for the price, but don't really compete in the same league as the Ikelite DS230, Sea & Sea YS-D3, Marelux Apollo 3 or Backscatter HF-1s, regardless of the 160Ws power output. (While I agree that manufacturer's GN ratings are all over the place, the Ws power rating also doesn't tell you much and isn't directly comparable. One 160Ws strobe can be up to a stop weaker than another 160Ws strobe depending on how efficiently it's implemented, reflectors, beam angle, color temperature, etc.. There's no substitute for comparative testing using a consistent methodology) Edited July 15 by DreiFish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreiFish Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I think the more 'on par' strobe from the Subtronic line is the Pro270. But this is definitely a big strobe, priced at $1350 (without VAT), and with dimensions to match -- 1200g, 90g negative, 110mm diameter by 180mm length. GN rated at 22, which is a stop brighter than the 160s, but pretty inefficient if it takes 270w to get that output. And that's all with an external battery pack, so extra weight and cost there. The 3AH external battery arm is $219 without VAT and weighs. It's only 21Wh, weighs 310g (-80g negative), and with such a high-powered strobe, that's only going to last you a dive or two. They do offer 9AH (64Wh) battery packs that seem to connect to the strobe via cable, but those are $552 without VAT and probably weigh a ton. So.. overall, Subtronic has an interesting modular design concept, but at the end of the day, nothing about the specs or the pricing particularly stands out from the pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, atus said: nobody seems to care about about spaniards We English care about you, Atus, especially after last night. A deserved win! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 15 hours ago, makar0n said: Thanks. Yeah saw those on Subtronic page, but they look like big things sticking out once connected to the port....was wondering if there is some other way 😉 My friend's solution was more basic and cheap. His Subtronic strobes are an old model with integrated battery pack. The guy just moved the front slave sensor to the back behind the rear plate and glued a small plastic tube for fiber connector. But the most economical solution was to place adhesive fibre adapters on the front slave sensor. I repeat, I know nothing about underwater photography and flashes but he says it works perfectly 😇 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makar0n Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 Thanks! Now this looks ingenious indeed, especially the use of the existing sensor xD But the tube looks neat, better that the converter sticking out a mile long. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atus Posted July 16 Author Share Posted July 16 Well, as I said, I never care about the GN, because everybody lies about it and there are so many ways to calculate it, the only accurate number is watt/s and these 160 plays in the same league than the retras's, for power and for quality of light, compare a Subtronic with an Inon is comparing a Ferrari with a Renault. I normally dive with partners with Inon's and Retra's and I have test all of them. I have had Sea&Sea 120, D1, D2 and D2j, Inon z240 and Z330. Trust me, no Inon have nothing to do against a Subtronic, and the only Sea&Sea which can make shadow to the Subtronic is the old 250. We can talk about the batteries used, the system for the batteries, the size, how heavy they are or even the design, the website only in german, but in terms of power and quality, they are definitely in the top league. Even the service is top, I had to use it two times, quick and unexpensive. When I said that none cares about the spaniards I didn't think about the football, or the tenis 😜 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreiFish Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 (edited) On 7/16/2024 at 12:40 PM, atus said: Well, as I said, I never care about the GN, because everybody lies about it and there are so many ways to calculate it, the only accurate number is watt/s and these 160 plays in the same league than the retras's, for power and for quality of light Perhaps they are in the same league, but you can't conclude that just from the watt/s figure. It's just a measure of energy in, not light output out, which is what we mostly care about. There's significant differences in the efficiency of different strobes at converting energy in into light output that come from the choice of electronics, reflectors, flash tube, coatings and beam coverage. For instance, the old Ikelite DS160s are 160 watt/seconds, but a stop less bright than the new Retra Pro Max with its ~130 watt/seconds rating. And the Subtronic 270s report an underwater GN of 22, which may very well offer comparable light output to the Seacam 160d (reported underwater GN of 14) and OneUW 160s (reported underwater GN of 20) despite their much more economic 160 watt/second ratings. (This last part is conjecture -- I haven't tested the three strobes myself, and I'm not aware of anyone that has). But the main point is that watt/second ratings don't tell you anything more about light output than manufacturer's GN ratings. Both can be 'lying with statistics' or creative marketing. On 7/16/2024 at 12:40 PM, atus said: , compare a Subtronic with an Inon is comparing a Ferrari with a Renault. I normally dive with partners with Inon's and Retra's and I have test all of them. I have had Sea&Sea 120, D1, D2 and D2j, Inon z240 and Z330. Trust me, no Inon have nothing to do against a Subtronic, and the only Sea&Sea which can make shadow to the Subtronic is the old 250. I'd encourage you to have a second look at the new Inon S-220s (brighter than the z240) and the Sea & Sea YS-D3, which is significantly brighter than the old Sea & Sea YS-250. Maybe the Ferrari vs. Renault analogy is apt when it comes to build quality and ergonomics, but not necessarily to raw power or efficiency. The better analogy might be a 1990s Ferrari vs. a 2024 Renault. Technology (and even ergonomics) has progressed a lot in cars in the last 3 decades, and the same is true when it comes to the technology in underwater strobes in the last decade. Purely a subjective impression, but it seems the Subtronic designs are getting a little long in the tooth. Edited July 17 by DreiFish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atus Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 Yes, there are significant variants depending of the light bulb and the reflector in terms of power but again the GN is not true guide. How do they calculate this number, on land or underwater ? what about the iso ? Did they use reflector or zomms ? I don't trust in a guide number if they don't calculate ir fairly. And in my experience comparing with partners using the third generation of Retra the difference is 1/2 stop between Subtronic 160 and Retra pro. That said, another very big question is about quality of light, and this quality is impossible to reach with square bulbs. So this leave a part all Inon, Sea&Sea (except old YS 250) and Marelux. These strobes are fine for macro shooting but not for wide angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreiFish Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 12 hours ago, atus said: That said, another very big question is about quality of light, and this quality is impossible to reach with square bulbs. So this leave a part all Inon, Sea&Sea (except old YS 250) and Marelux. These strobes are fine for macro shooting but not for wide angle. I think round tube flash strobes having way better quality of light than flat tube is something often quoted by people who haven't compared the two. It's an urban legend that should be laid to rest in 2024. I have done comparison testing of several round flash tube strobes, and several linear tube ones. So has Backscatter. My conclusions are that, once you add diffusers to the flat tube strobes, the differences in light quality are pretty hard to notice even in air -- and likely even more minor in water, which diffuses the light further. Here's proof: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atus Posted July 19 Author Share Posted July 19 I haven't done this test this way, but I have done underwater with the inon Z330 and Z240 and with the Sea&Sea D1 and D2, and in all of them the hot spots were noticiable with difussers and without. Furthermore, the use of diffusers to reach a determinate quality of light means loosing of power, and when you are shooting aganist the sun in shallow waters you need all the power avaliable. Specially when shooting with a FF camera. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreiFish Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, atus said: I haven't done this test this way, but I have done underwater with the inon Z330 and Z240 and with the Sea&Sea D1 and D2, and in all of them the hot spots were noticiable with difussers and without. Furthermore, the use of diffusers to reach a determinate quality of light means loosing of power, and when you are shooting aganist the sun in shallow waters you need all the power avaliable. Specially when shooting with a FF camera. The loss of power is real, but keep in mind that the straight flash tube strobes start out with more power to begin with. Have a look at the images above, which are all shot at F22, ISO100, strobe on full power (with and without diffusers) and 1.4m distance from strobe to wall. As you can see, the diffusers reduce power, but the light output (Backscatter HF-1, Marelux Apollo III, Sea & Sea YS-D3) is still equal to or greater than the circular flash tube strobes (Ikelite YSD230 and Supe D-Pro). Edited July 19 by DreiFish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atus Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 Sorry about the late reply, I had very busy days. In the pictures above the difference of power of about 1/2 stop in the pictures above is clearly noticiable. Take a look at the carpet, it's darker in the pciture to the left. But I agree with you than the hotspot is still more noticiable in the Ikelite strobe. Now I'm fancy to do the same test with the Subtronic and the Sea&Sea D2 which I still have one, let's see how much does it last... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Architeuthis Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) On 7/19/2024 at 7:01 PM, DreiFish said: The loss of power is real, but keep in mind that the straight flash tube strobes start out with more power to begin with. Have a look at the images above, which are all shot at F22, ISO100, strobe on full power (with and without diffusers) and 1.4m distance from strobe to wall. As you can see, the diffusers reduce power, but the light output (Backscatter HF-1, Marelux Apollo III, Sea & Sea YS-D3) is still equal to or greater than the circular flash tube strobes (Ikelite YSD230 and Supe D-Pro). These are all very interesting comparisons. I would say that the intensity in the center is similar between HF-1 with 5500 K diffuser and Ikelite DS230 w/o diffuser. The carpet is, however, much darker with HF-1, compared to Ikelite. I interpret this the way that light distribution is clearly more even with the Ikelite w/o diffuser compared to HF-1 with diffuser... => This sounds pretty bad as even light distribution is something highly desired by everybody... One must say, however, that normally for WA one uses two flashes and the objects in the center are normally lit by the periphery of the flash beams. The centers of the flash beam lit at most the corners of the scenery and these may be the problematic regions where light drops off in real life conditions (so more intensity there may be well a benefit). In the center the two flash beams add up and give good brightness. I cannot remember that ever I had a problem with WA and two flashes, where the center was not bright enough due to uneven light distribution of the flash beam (YS-D2s and Z330s; all linear flash tubes) - unless the object in the center was close and I did not pull the flashes close enough together... Maybe the more uneven light distribution becomes a problem when WA with a single strobe, but few people do this... Wolfgang Edited July 23 by Architeuthis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_Mustard Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 On 7/14/2024 at 6:21 PM, atus said: I can' understand why nobody consider the Subtronic strobes. Made in Germany, with the service in Germany, great light quality with circular light tube, 160 wat/sec and lithium batterry pack. Here are some reasons: https://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?/topic/14391-subtronic-nightmare-continues/ https://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?/topic/55535-subtronic-support-did-it-again-be-aware/ https://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?/topic/63755-troubles-with-subtronic-underwater-flashes/ https://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?/topic/50432-subtronic-issues/ https://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44156-subtronic-customer-service/ https://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23076-subtronic/ You need to be a member of the other place to read. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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