Retra Strobes Pros & Cons

[Jerry Diver]

Complaints about prices and comparisons of strobes based solely on their pricing are really pointless. The 6-year-old 2018 strobe is nowhere near the quality and performance of today's versions, hence the higher price for the latest models.

 

Additionally, we've experienced significant global inflation over the last four years. Strobes that previously cost $500-600 are now in the $900 range. This trend is evident across other products as well; for example, trigger boards that used to cost $250 now sell for $650.

 

The UW photo market is so small that producing large quantities is not feasible. This ongoing issue in our hobby leads to two problems: higher prices and lower quality. The limited user base prevents achieving the critical mass needed for true industrialization. Consequently, these products are often hand-built, making them more prone to human errors during assembly and development.

 

In recent years, we've seen a significant influx of Chinese strobes from brands like Supe, Marelux, and Backscatter. These are great options for those on a budget. However, a detailed comparison reveals clear differences in quality and features between these and established brands like Seacam, Ikelite, and Retra.

[Barmaglot]

32 minutes ago, Jerry Diver said:

Complaints about prices and comparisons of strobes based solely on their pricing are really pointless. The 6-year-old 2018 strobe is nowhere near the quality and performance of today's versions, hence the higher price for the latest models.

Really? What is this big huge earth-shattering difference between my 2020-vintage Retra Pro (2018 is the pre-order date; the actual hardware shipped just before covid hit) and the latest Retra Pro Max that retails at double the price? Couple dozen more shots per charge, 0.2s shorter recycle time and a few ounces of weight?

 

36 minutes ago, Jerry Diver said:

Additionally, we've experienced significant global inflation over the last four years. Strobes that previously cost $500-600 are now in the $900 range. This trend is evident across other products as well; for example, trigger boards that used to cost $250 now sell for $650.

Sea & Sea YS-D1 launched at $750 in 2012. The current model, YS-D3 Mark II, retails at $600. I don't know what trigger boards went from $250 to $650, but I paid $450 for my UW-Technics converter four years ago, and it lists for $520 now.

 

41 minutes ago, Jerry Diver said:

In recent years, we've seen a significant influx of Chinese strobes from brands like Supe, Marelux, and Backscatter. These are great options for those on a budget. However, a detailed comparison reveals clear differences in quality and features between these and established brands like Seacam, Ikelite, and Retra.

Ikelite is considerably less expensive than Retra these days, with a DS230 retailing for $1295 including a battery pack and charger. Retra Pro Max with a battery pack clocks in at $2049, over 1.5x more, while delivering less power.

[fruehaufsteher2]

Reminds me of the discussion on fine tools. It doesn't always have to be Stahlwille, Knipex Hazet or Gedore. But it helps sometimes having the best tool.
I recently swapped my well-functioning Seafrogs SF-01 (cost €450) for a new Retra Pro Max. The illumination, adjustability, range of functions and light temperature are so much better that I don't regret the purchase.

[TimG]

8 minutes ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

But it helps sometimes having the best tool.

 

You pays your money and you take your chances. 

 

I loved my Inons but pretty much zero customer support, oddly quirky controls and an indigestible manual. Retra? Yep, expensive for sure but a quality product, super light quality, terrific support and backup.

 

Bluetooth firmware updates, anyone?

[Andrej Oblak]

2 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

Reminds me of the discussion on fine tools. It doesn't always have to be Stahlwille, Knipex Hazet or Gedore. But it helps sometimes having the best tool.
I recently swapped my well-functioning Seafrogs SF-01 (cost €450) for a new Retra Pro Max. The illumination, adjustability, range of functions and light temperature are so much better that I don't regret the purchase.

 

Same here. I migrated from Inon Z-330, and never regretted it. The more I get to know my new flashes, the more I like them. It's so much easier to get a pleasing and more even light. It's hard for me to explain, I just see the subtle differences in each shot that I make. Power and numbers on paper are not everything.

[Davide DB]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

I loved my Inons but pretty much zero customer support, oddly quirky controls and an indigestible manual

 

[DreiFish]

12 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

 

 

In recent years, we've seen a significant influx of Chinese strobes from brands like Supe, Marelux, and Backscatter. These are great options for those on a budget. However, a detailed comparison reveals clear differences in quality and features between these and established brands like Seacam, Ikelite, and Retra.

Which detailed comparison are you referencing here, Jerry? The only credible comparison testing I've seen is from Backscatter, and it doesn't back up the "clear differences in quality and features" you're claiming. The Retras are well designed and well built, no doubt, but what features do they have that the Marelux Apollo 3s or Backscatter HF-1s don't? Battery capacity is no better, power output is between 1.5 and 1 stop less, recycling times are worse on the Retras, all have HSS and TTL. The HF-1s have more options in terms of diffusers, a credible video light built in, etc. The Marelux Apollo 3s have impressive remote-triggering capabilities and claimed consistent exposure between repeated shots. Beam quality and color temperature may be better on the Retras, but at the cost of reduced power output. And even on that metric, the Ikelite DS230s do better at 65% the price.

 

Truth is, even money being no object, I'm not sure I would pick or recommend the Retras today over some of the other choices out there. I sold my Retra Pro Xs, and briefly considered getting a pair of the Retra Pro Max to replace them when the power Vault was announced. Then noticed the size and the minimal improvements to recycling times.  Personally.. I just don't see enough pluses here to make this an end-game strobe. 

 

11 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

Reminds me of the discussion on fine tools. It doesn't always have to be Stahlwille, Knipex Hazet or Gedore. But it helps sometimes having the best tool.
I recently swapped my well-functioning Seafrogs SF-01 (cost €450) for a new Retra Pro Max. The illumination, adjustability, range of functions and light temperature are so much better that I don't regret the purchase.

 

Are these really the best tool though? Sure, coming from a mediocre strobe like the Seafrogs SF-01 they offer a very real and noticeable improvement. But there's plenty of other contenders for the 'best strobe' crown these days. 

[fruehaufsteher2]

6 hours ago, DreiFish said:

Are these really the best tool though? Sure, coming from a mediocre strobe like the Seafrogs SF-01 they offer a very real and noticeable improvement. But there's plenty of other contenders for the 'best strobe' crown these days. 

I think so, yes.

 

However, there is one caveat to the names of the craftsmen's tools: some, such as Makita, have opted for a Chinese-produced low-cost line, and there is no softer material than Chinese steel. But this is not the case with Retra.

For Retra, I don't see any disadvantages compared to the new plastic lightning tools from Backscatter and Marelux.
I can live with Retra's statement that with the new energy efficiency you only have to charge the battery as often as the camera battery. In my opinion, the flash recycle time is completely uncritical. And I still think that the circular flash tube will have advantages over linear tubes in the future, even if it is less efficient.

[Barmaglot]

1 hour ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

For Retra, I don't see any disadvantages compared to the new plastic lightning tools from Backscatter and Marelux.

Other than the massive price difference? I mean, I paid (checks email) €1478 for a pair of Retra Pros in December 2018. At current EUR/USD exchange rate, that's $1610 - almost exactly the price of a single current-gen Retra Pro Max. Yes, that price included a ~20% discount (IIRC the full price was €900 per strobe) and I had to wait over a year for them to ship (February 2020), but even so, the price hike from €900 to $1600 (~€1460) over a few years is massive and difficult to justify, especially in the presence of credible alternatives from Backscatter, Marelux, Ikelite, Sea & Sea, etc.

[fruehaufsteher2]

19 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

Other than the massive price difference? I mean, I paid (checks email) €1478 for a pair of Retra Pros in December 2018. At current EUR/USD exchange rate, that's $1610 - almost exactly the price of a single current-gen Retra Pro Max. Yes, that price included a ~20% discount (IIRC the full price was €900 per strobe) and I had to wait over a year for them to ship (February 2020), but even so, the price hike from €900 to $1600 (~€1460) over a few years is massive and difficult to justify, especially in the presence of credible alternatives from Backscatter, Marelux, Ikelite, Sea & Sea, etc.

Looking at the price lists for all the comparable competitors I see the price hike for all strobes in the last 4 years, but the differences in current prices are not so big; they all are in the 1.500.- to 1.900.- range. 

[Jerry Diver]

8 hours ago, DreiFish said:

Which detailed comparison are you referencing here, Jerry?

Just look at HSS: the Backscatter HF strobe claims to have it but offers only one power level in HSS mode, while Retra offers 13. Beyond this:

• Only Retra offers leakage detection inside their strobe (saved countless of users from having a dead strobe).
• Only Retra provides simple firmware upgrades via phone and diagnostics in case of issues.
• Only Retra offers a wide variety of light-modifying accessories, not just different versions of the same diffusers.
• Only Retra provides a 2.5-year worldwide warranty on their strobes and highly responsive customer support.

I could go on about the user interface, design, light quality, and more. The differences are clear and significant, especially once you delve into the details. However, if you are on a budget, these might not be as critical for you.

 

From what I’m reading, the discussion is still focused on price differences and making pointless comparisons. Someone compared Ikelite and Retra earlier, but these two brands couldn’t be more different. Ikelite makes strobes that fit well with their equipment and don't even offer native fiber optic ports for starters.

 

In any case, if price is your main concern, there are plenty of affordable options available. Choose what fits your budget.

[Barmaglot]

1 hour ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

Looking at the price lists for all the comparable competitors I see the price hike for all strobes in the last 4 years, but the differences in current prices are not so big; they all are in the 1.500.- to 1.900.- range. 

Who are those competitors? Sea & Sea YS-D1 launched at $750 - I see YS-D3 Mark II listed at $800 and marked down to $750 on both Backscatter and Bluewater Photo; Divervision has it at $600. SUPE D-Pro is $758, Marelux Apollo III is $1199, Ikelite DS230 is $1295, Backscatter HF-1 is $899.  Only ONEUW 160X II is comparable in price to Retras, listing at $2260, including a battery pack, whereas the $1600 Retra Pro Max comes without batteries, and you get to spend almost $500 more for a power vault. Even the Seacam 160D is not too far off at this point.

 

1 hour ago, Jerry Diver said:

Just look at HSS: the Backscatter HF strobe claims to have it but offers only one power level in HSS mode, while Retra offers 13.

While I've used the HSS mode on my Retras on occasion, I have never had it set to less than max power - even that is weak enough already.

 

1 hour ago, Jerry Diver said:

• Only Retra offers leakage detection inside their strobe (saved countless of users from having a dead strobe).
• Only Retra provides simple firmware upgrades via phone and diagnostics in case of issues.
• Only Retra offers a wide variety of light-modifying accessories, not just different versions of the same diffusers.
• Only Retra provides a 2.5-year worldwide warranty on their strobes and highly responsive customer support.

I don't know about 'countless users'; strobe floods are not that common IME. I have had the detector go off once - that was an Eneloop Pro deciding to leak electrolyte. I'll grant you the light-modifying accessories, mainly the reflectors which are quite unique, but it's easy enough to print an adapter to mount them on a different strobe. Regardless, all of that was present on 2nd gen strobes announced in 2018 and released in 2020 and doesn't in any way explain the doubling of the price that occurred since then.

[makar0n]

EDIT:

Aaaand @Barmaglot beat me by 10 seconds 😉

 

 

Hmm so let's stir the hornets nest...

Ignoring your user and post history, and the fact that your posts strongly remind me of corporate marketing materials.

 

 

Quote

Only Retra offers leakage detection inside their strobe (saved countless of users from having a dead strobe).

 

Certainly a good idea to have a leakage detector but not a must have for a strobe. And do you have any proof for those "countless of users" being saved?

 

Quote

Only Retra provides simple firmware upgrades via phone and diagnostics in case of issues.

 

Again, interesting feature, but not a must have - strobe "tech" world moves at a snail pace and does not necessarily requires monthly updates (providing solid QA and testing at development stage bug wise)

And this is coming from a software update freak 😉

 

Quote

Only Retra offers a wide variety of light-modifying accessories, not just different versions of the same diffusers.

 

So a few diffusers and a fancy snoot, about the same can be had from any other manufacturer.

 

Quote

Only Retra provides a 2.5-year worldwide warranty on their strobes and highly responsive customer support.

 

Now this made me laugh - every strobe sold in EU comes with a 2 year warranty as a minimum. Without any gimmicks like needing to install an app or register anywhere (rather illegal under EU law...FYI showing end user prices  in a webshop without tax included is also illegal in EU...) . Now sure, this is different outside EU but again, Retra claims to be European manufacturer, so it would do to follow European rules, right ?

Cannot comment on customer support but the one case that was widely discussed here left a rather peculiar taste in my mouth - all Retra replies reminded be of corporate twisting the words so any issues becomes your issues and management is never at fault. But then again maybe I am just overly sensitive to corporate nonsense.

 

Quote

I could go on about the user interface, design, light quality, and more. The differences are clear and significant, especially once you delve into the details. However, if you are on a budget, these might not be as critical for you.

 

Educate me please. Again, I would be more than keen to learn - I am not discarding Retra because it is a bad strobe, but certainly pricing seems out of hand, hence if there are "clear and significant" differences that justify this price, do let everybody know.

 

Quote

Someone compared Ikelite and Retra earlier, but these two brands couldn’t be more different. Ikelite makes strobes that fit well with their equipment and don't even offer native fiber optic ports for starters.

Not sure what does it mean "fit well with their equipment" - surely one can use Ikelite strobe regardless of housing brand ?

 

I agree lack of fiber optic port is certainly a drawback for majority of the users probably, but this is not something that is "un-fixable" - quite the opposite, adapter solves the issue. And even with the additional cost of it we are still below single Retra price (at possibly better performance light wise)

 

 Also in one post you praise Ikelite and compare to Retra and in another, not?

What you posted on page 3:

Quote

In contrast, companies like Ikelite and Retra manufacture their products in-house, in the USA and Europe, where labor and environmental laws actually apply. One is a powerhouse in longevity, and the other is a true innovator.

 

Edited July 17 by makar0n

[fruehaufsteher2]

We are far away from the original topic - maybe the headline should be switched to "Retra pro & con"

 

There's no doubt that the Retra Pro Max is one of the most expensive currently available underwater flashes.

 

For some of us, the sum of the positive characteristics, including the company's charisma, is worth the price, for others it is far beyond the scope of sensible expenditure. I've already made the comparison with tools, how about car brands? Mercedes versus Mazda?
I'll continue reading about the battle of the different positions, but I don't think there's any point in adding any more arguments. These have already been exchanged.

[DreiFish]

 

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

Just look at HSS: the Backscatter HF strobe claims to have it but offers only one power level in HSS mode, while Retra offers 13.

 

99% of the time (100% of the time in wide angle scenarios) you're shooting in full power in HSS mode anyway because HSS mode inherently puts out less light. 

 

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

Beyond this:

• Only Retra offers leakage detection inside their strobe (saved countless of users from having a dead strobe).

 

Hyperbole. Sure, it's not a completely useless feature, but if there's water in the battery compartment, odds are you've already lost the batteries, moisture alarm or not. All of the strobes we've been discussing have isolated battery packs/battery compartments, so even without the moisture detection, you're not compromising the integrity of the strobe itself if you continue the dive. This falls into the category of 'over-engineered' in my book, increasing the price for no functional advantage. 

 

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

• Only Retra provides simple firmware upgrades via phone and diagnostics in case of issues

 

Theoretically beneficial, if you happen to have an issue that can be solved by a firmware update. Do you have actual examples Retra solving issues through firmware? Or other manufacturers having issues that could've been addressed by firmware that weren't because there was no ability for the user to upgrade the firmware?

 

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

• Only Retra offers a wide variety of light-modifying accessories, not just different versions of the same diffusers.

 

Backscatter HF-2 offers a wider range of diffusers and light modifiers. They will also offer an optical snoot specially designed for the HF-2, just like Retra. And of course, Retra's optical snoot is compatible with other strobes, so that's not an argument for buying the Retras. About the only unique accessory is the reflector, and that's only needed because of the lower power output. Other strobes like the Backscatter HF-2 achieve the same result (at higher power) simply by removing the diffuser. 

 

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

• Only Retra provides a 2.5-year worldwide warranty on their strobes and highly responsive customer support.

 

Customer support is a plus, to be sure, but even here I wouldn't say Retra is alone in this category. From every report I've seen, Backscatter and Ikelite are also very responsive when it comes to customer support. I assume Seacam is the same.

 

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

I could go on about the user interface, design, light quality, and more. The differences are clear and significant, especially once you delve into the details. However, if you are on a budget, these might not be as critical for you.

 

I think the differences are critical even if you're not on a budget. As said -- I could afford any of these strobes. But what's Retra bringing to the table that other manufacturers don't, even if we assumed the price was equal?

• The user interface is great. Agreed. But Backscatter, Ikelite, Marelux, Seacam and OneUW are 90% of the way there too on user interface. 
• Light quality -- on par (or slightly worse) than the Seacam, OneUW and Ikelite. Wider and softer beam by default than the Marelux and Backscatter HF-1s, but both those are 1-1/2 stop brighter. When you add the Backscatter diffusers into the picture, you get similar beam coverage at similar temperatures and still higher power.
• "And more" -- which more? "Differences are clear and significant" - how?

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

 

From what I’m reading, the discussion is still focused on price differences and making pointless comparisons. Someone compared Ikelite and Retra earlier, but these two brands couldn’t be more different. Ikelite makes strobes that fit well with their equipment and don't even offer native fiber optic ports for starters.

 

Ikelite strobes work just as well with all the same features with other manufacturer's housings if you use the Ikelite TTL converters (which are reasonably priced and no more expensive than installing a 3rd-party optical flash trigger). Plus, with the electrical sync, you get more accurate TTL than Retra's optical sync implementation. And they work just fine in (manual mode) with fiberoptic connection if you get the $150 optical sensor. Plus, Ikelite gets you the option of off-camera use with an optical sensor connected to the strobe via electrical sync cable, all at quite reasonable prices. This makes them the best strobe in my view for placing on the back of a model's tanks and triggering reliably, especially combined with the highest overall power output at 5000k. The Retras? They offer no option for remote triggering, so you can't even use them off-camera reliably. 

 

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

 

In any case, if price is your main concern, there are plenty of affordable options available. Choose what fits your budget.

 

Price is not my primary concern. Features are. And for the reasons I've explained above, the Retras fall short of other newer strobes here. 

 

4 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

We are far away from the original topic - maybe the headline should be switched to "Retra pro & con"

 

I would agree.. perhaps a mod could split this exchange into a separate post? 

 

4 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

 

There's no doubt that the Retra Pro Max is one of the most expensive currently available underwater flashes.

 

For some of us, the sum of the positive characteristics, including the company's charisma, is worth the price, for others it is far beyond the scope of sensible expenditure. I've already made the comparison with tools, how about car brands? Mercedes versus Mazda?
I'll continue reading about the battle of the different positions, but I don't think there's any point in adding any more arguments. These have already been exchanged.

 

From my perspective, while price factors into it, the Retras fall short even if price is irrelevant. I also think there's room to expand further on the feature comparison we've started. Why cut the discussion short? Especially if we split it off into a different thread? More information is always better then less when making purchasing decisions -- at least, that's my preference 😄 

[DreiFish]

9 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

For Retra, I don't see any disadvantages compared to the new plastic lightning tools from Backscatter and Marelux.
I can live with Retra's statement that with the new energy efficiency you only have to charge the battery as often as the camera battery. In my opinion, the flash recycle time is completely uncritical. And I still think that the circular flash tube will have advantages over linear tubes in the future, even if it is less efficient.

 

Let's be clear: The Marelux Apollo 3s are fully aluminium construction. And the Backscatter HF-2s use aluminum for the flash head and heat sync, and plastic for the body to reduce weight. This is good engineering -- there's nothing inherently inferior with good quality plastics for this application. I mean, even Seacam uses plastic instead of aluminum for its port extensions to reduce weight with no loss of quality or durability. Similarly, while the Ikelite DS230s are a plastic built, I've never heard any complaints about durability or reliability as a result. Selective use of plastics to reduce weight (and cost) is a feature, not a bug. 

 

7 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

Looking at the price lists for all the comparable competitors I see the price hike for all strobes in the last 4 years, but the differences in current prices are not so big; they all are in the 1.500.- to 1.900.- range. 

 

Please don't make misrepresentations about easily-verifiable facts:

• Ikelite DS230s are $1295
• Marelux Apollo 3s are $1199
• Backscatter HF-2s are $899

 

Edited July 17 by DreiFish

[Lewis88]

I got new strobes earlier this year (right before the HF1's launched). I eyed retras for a long time, but their ongoing cost increases diminished their value and my interest. Instead, I was able to get a pair of D3's from diver vision for $600 a piece, along with the dome diffusers and a snoot ($79 vs $370 for retras LSD).

 

Had the HF1's launched, I might have considered them, but no slave TTL is a big issue for me, and they haven't finished their Sony ttl module yet.

 

I shoot APS-C and tropical water, so my light needs aren't as taxing as some, but I have yet to need more light than the D3's provide.

 

I just can't see the value Retra is providing for a significantly more expensive strobe, with a weird battery protuberance, without significantly better light quality.

Edited July 17 by Lewis88

[Andrej Oblak]

2 hours ago, DreiFish said:

The Retras? They offer no option for remote triggering, so you can't even use them off-camera reliably.

 

Anglerfish v3.0 trigger + optical cable works just fine

[DreiFish]

10 minutes ago, Andrej Oblak said:

 

Anglerfish v3.0 trigger + optical cable works just fine

Thanks Andrej, I wasn't aware Anglerfish made a trigger with optical connection, thought it was electrical only. Great info!

[TimG]

32 minutes ago, Andrej Oblak said:

Anglerfish v3.0 trigger + optical cable works just fine

 

It does indeed. It works really well.

[fruehaufsteher2]

4 hours ago, DreiFish said:

 

From my perspective, while price factors into it, the Retras fall short even if price is irrelevant. I also think there's room to expand further on the feature comparison we've started. Why cut the discussion short? Especially if we split it off into a different thread? More information is always better then less when making purchasing decisions -- at least, that's my preference 😄 

All right, you've convinced me. Now that I own a nice pair of Retra Po Max and I'm really happy with them, I'm going to defend them vigorously against any attacks.

 

[fruehaufsteher2]

14 hours ago, DreiFish said:

Please don't make misrepresentations about easily-verifiable facts:

• Ikelite DS230s are $1295
• Marelux Apollo 3s are $1199
• Backscatter HF-2s are $899

 

I was refrring to my local dealer in €:

 

null

[DreiFish]

6 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

I was refrring to my local dealer in €:

 

Looks like the price in Europe for the Apollo III is still 1125 Euro -- a bit short of the 1500-1900 estimate 😉 Whereas the Retra Pro Max once you add the power Vault (532.40 Euro) would be.. drumroll.. 2302.40 Euro. 

 

Ouch. No idea why the Retras are even more expensive in the E.U. then they are in the U.S....

 

[TimG]

35 minutes ago, DreiFish said:

Ouch. No idea why the Retras are even more expensive in the E.U. then they are in the U.S....

 

Quite possibly because sales tax, VAT, is included in the price if you buy them in the EU from a dealer.

 

Retra quote VAT-free prices on the website as goods are not necessarily being bought by EU nationals. They add the tax at the appropriate rate depending where in the EU they are exported. Here in Netherlands, for example, 21% VAT is added. If you look on the price charged by, say Onderwaterhuis -  an excellent dealer in the Netherlands,  their price is VAT-inclusive.

 

Prices for electronic-type goods always look WAY cheaper in the US. Adding tax into the price at 20%-21% in the EU is the usual explanation. 

 

 

[Jerry Diver]

It seems like some folks bought a 2nd Gen Retra strobe back in 2018 at a bargain price and had to wait over a year to get it cause of a pre-order campaign that got delayed several times. Now, they're resentful that six years later, with all the global crises in between, the new 4th Gen models cost too much.

 

Then there are folks who never bought a Retra Flash, and they're comparing strobes just based on price. It's clear that price is a big deal for them. Naturally, they're upset they can't get a high-quality product cheap and argue that all the unique features of Retra strobes are pointless and don't justify the price.

 

Finally, you have the few folks who actually own and use the latest generation Retra Flash (having tried different brands before), and most of them seem mighty pleased with their strobes. Well, ain't that something!