I have circa GBP4,000 or US$5,000 to spend on a new underwater set up, moving up from a TG6, primarily shoot stills but do want some video capability.

Looking for a mirrorless set up that I can really grow into and am happy to have a mix of new and second hand equipment to hit the price point but will need to include

Body
Lenses - Both Fish eye / Wide Angle and Macro
Port - Dome
Housing with optical connectors and vacuum

I have a tray, arms, strobes etc

At the moment am looking at either a Canon or Sony.

But if you were starting out / starting again what would you go for?

Edited December 20, 20231 yr by Mark Don

Hey Mark

Some thoughts:

If you have already decided that you want to shoot macro and WA then I'd suggest an early decision is on format rather than camera manufacturer. So, full-frame (FF), cropped sensor (APS-C or DX) or Micro 4/3rds (M43). All of them are a big switch from a TG6. What do you intend to do with the images may well determine what you choose.

If you are shooting for purely personal use, view on screen, show your friends, then  you really don't need to go for a large format sensor (ie, FF). DX or M43 would be perfectly good.  If you are thinking of huge prints (say bigger than A3) or serious image sales, then maybe you need FF. The camera marketers will try and steer you down the FF path but that is really not necessary and can, I think, be counter-productive.

If you go FF you are looking at bigger, heavier and more expensive lenses. Whilst macro is easy to house in pretty much any format, housing wide-angle is much more difficult and expensive for FF than one of the smaller formats. A big domeport is usually necessary unless you choose just a fisheye lens.

Both DX and M43 lenses are much easier to house, less expensive and less bulky. 

If you chose FF then for macro and wide-angle you are looking at, say, a 105mm macro lens; and a 15mm fisheye (FE) for wide-angle or a 16-35mm lens which will give you a rectilinear image and not fisheye. FEs are much easier to house than a 16-35.

You would probably chose the same type of lenses for DX or M43, ie macro and FE or rectilinear but because of the smaller sensor size, the numbering might be slightly different especially for wide-angle. So, for example the DX equivalent of a 16-35 is a 10-24; the equivalent of a 15mm FE is a 10.5mm FE.

Strobes, arms, fibre optic connectors, vacuum valves are all the same whichever system you choose. All these are items that can be transferred from system to system and are worth careful consideration and not scrimping on.

Then cost. A new FF system complete is probably in the region of £13-15,000. You can probably get that down to around £7-£8000 if you go second hand and pick up some good deals.

A DX-based system is probably two-thirds of that. M43 a little less again. 

My suggestion would be that you give serious thought to the end use of the images. Decide the format, then decide what lenses you would like; then see which manufacturers make them for which camera; then narrow down the camera. I wouldn't suggest you start with the camera body. That is the cheap bit of the package, not the most critical and the least long-term purchase.

I'm sure others will chip in with views. But for the moment, I would not narrow down your thinking to either Sony or Canon. That might be your final decision but, as I say, get a good idea first what you want to achieve and then work out how. Otherwise there is a really good chance you spend a ton of money and not get what you want; or spend a ton of money unnecessarily.

I hope that helps a bit.

Thanks Tim, you have helped me rule out FF which was in the mix. I am not too worried about strobes as I have a decent set and can / will pick some up in Japan at 50% of UK costs at some point if I need new ones and have decent arms, clamps etc,

The camera will be used for travel so size is important, but hadnt thought of starting with the lenses and working backwards - The initial lenses that keep popping up are :-

Canon EF 16-35 mm f/4L

Tokina 10-17 mm

But completely flexible, again I maybe able to pick up cheap lenses in April in Japan, so maybe that is where I start
 

Hey Mark

I've been using the Tokina 10-17 for some years and it’s brilliant underwater on a crop sensor system. Horrible though above water! One nice thing about it is that it works very well with a 100mm domeport - so small and light weight for traveling. And it’s perfect for CFWA with a 1.4TC.

If  you go the crop sensor route, you could pair the Tokina with either a 60mm, 90mm or even 105mm macro lens. I use a 60mm and 105mm. I think I prefer the 105mm as it lets you stand back a bit further but it’s harder to use initially. 

$5000 is not a lot in UW terms, depending somewhat upon which housing you want.  I think the first suggestion is start with your subject and work backwards to the camera and finally the housing.  The thing to remember is that costs and size scale with sensor format, you can generally use smaller domes with m43 and APS-C.   The thing with APS_C is you often end up using fullframe sized and priced lenses, while m43 lenses are mostly significantly smaller and also cheaper. 

On Macro the Olympus 60mm macro is $399 while the Sony 90mm is $998 and Canon EF/RF 100mm around the same price.  (New $USD price at BHPhoto)

For wide angle an Olympus 8mm fisheye is $899 while a Canon 8-15 is $1249.  In rectilinear the Canon APS-C offerings are a little slim with a 10-18 offered while you can get an 8-25 which is more versatile (16-28mm vs 16-50mm full frame equivalent).  Uniquely m43 allows you to use the Canon 8-15 on an adapter which is a full frame fisheye to approximately a 28mm full frame field of view on horizontal axis with superb image quality.  Not available at all on full full frame, though the tokina can do similar on APS_C.

For travel I can fit my Olympus EM-1mkII system in a carry on size backpack with Zen 170mm dome, 100mm fisheye dome, macro port and two INON strobes, along with fisheye, macro and rectilinear wide lens, spare batteries and bits and pieces at a reasonable weight point.

I would suggest scoping out a few system and entering them in a spreadsheet with new costs initially and consider that a used system probably goes for 50% or a little less than purchased new.  Then start looking at what second hand cameras go for on Ebay for example.

Here's a post showing an olympus 60mm macro next to a Canon EF 100 macro:  https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4595033 

The Canon lens gets double the effective magnification due to crop factor compared to full frame.  Canon no longer make the 60mm APS_C macro, the only real option for Sony is the 90mm macro which is a big lens and arguably a bit too long focal length on APS-C.  The size and weight of lenses does add up.  On Canon you would be using an adapter unless you use the 100mm RF macro lens.

Thanks Chris and Tim you've helped loads

I do think a spreadsheet is the way to go unfortunately 🙂 

My thought process now is concentrate on lenses, then housing then ports and possibly pick up a body second hand.

Looking at lenses, the Tamron, is probably set, a rectinler lens and a 90 - 100 mm macro.Good news is I can probably get all the lenses required in Tokyo for less than $1200-1500 second hand, serviced and almost as good as new, so that would allow me some flex on the housing, body and ports.

On housings, Ikelite seem good value would you concur or should I just splash out for a nauticam?


On Bodies the Olympus Om-1, Canon EOS R7, Sony a6700 are currently leading the way and if bought in Japan would be $1000-1500 

Which leaves around $2K for ports and housing, so at this stage it looks workable with Ikelite housing just need to build that spreadsheet

 

 

Hi Mark

Good to know its been of help  

Ikelite housings: the big differences are price and, depending on which model/camera, size. Ikelites are usually made of polycarbons and are often boxier with possibly less access to some camera controls. Chris will correct me, but I’m not sure Ikelite housings necessarily have ports allowing fibre optic connections to strobes. 

By contrast, the aluminium housings Subal, Nauticam, Aquatica…. , tend to follow the form of the camera body more closely and are more compact as a result. Generally all camera controls can be accessed and usually in a very ergonomic way. Both optical and electric strobe initiation is usually possible. 

I must admit my preference would be to go for an aluminium housing but many use Ikelite and enjoy the company’s reputation for good customer service. 
 

Tamron lens? Do you mean Tokina? If you go with the Tokina 10-17 I’d suggest holding off on a rectilinear lens till you’ve used the Tokina for a while and then reassess. 

24 minutes ago, TimG said:

Tamron lens? Do you mean Tokina? If you go with the Tokina 10-17 I’d suggest holding off on a rectilinear lens till you’ve used the Tokina for a while and then reassess. 

Hi Tim

Yes I meant Tokina, if I hold off the Rectilinear lens I might be able to stretch to an Aluminium body.

The ikelite's can do fibre optic firing but you need a US$250 kit which adds a bit onto the cost.

Back to the spreadsheets 😞

1 minute ago, Mark Don said:

Back to the spreadsheets 😞

Was there life before spreadsheets?

I think that's a good call on the rectilinear vs aluminium body, Mark. You may well find you don't need a rectilinear.  

In addition, if you do buy one, you will need a bigger and more expensive domeport than a 100mm one that would work perfectly well for the Tokina. For example an APS-C/DX sensor camera using a rectilinear lens will likely need an 8" domeport and a ?50mm extension ring.

Read the fine print closely for the ikelite housing you are thinking of, the choice of ports is sometimes limited for example the only way to use zoom on a number of the compact models is with a 6"dome which has the zoom control on the dome extension.  So on these housings you can't use zoom with an 8"dome for example and there is no 4"dome option.  This applies to the Canon R7 for example.

On housing options have a look also at Isotta. many of their mirrorless housings are very compact.

Spreadsheets are certainly the way to go pick a lens from each category and see what options there are to house it in each brand.  Also look over the classifieds her and on WP to see if there are any ports on offer.

On 12/21/2023 at 7:12 AM, Chris Ross said:

The thing to remember is that costs and size scale with sensor format, you can generally use smaller domes with m43 and APS-C.

.. and lust scales with time :-).

So an alternative approach is to buy a subset of what you want (e.g. macro/normal only setup) but in a way that you can add other elements later without sacrificing something you already bought (e.g. decide first whether in the long run you'd prefer common port with wet lens or  multiple lenses and ports for each).

Kind regards

Ajay.

1 hour ago, Ajay said:

.. and lust scales with time :-).

 

So VERY true!

14 hours ago, Mark Don said:

Looking at lenses, the Tamron, is probably set, a rectinler lens and a 90 - 100 mm macro.Good news is I can probably get all the lenses required in Tokyo for less than $1200-1500 second hand, serviced and almost as good as new, so that would allow me some flex on the housing, body and ports.
 

Little side track but I'm curious - where do you shop for second-hand camera gear in Japan? Sofmap? Bic Camera? or do you have any specialist stores to recommend?
Most of the second-hand stuff i bought in Japan was on Mercari, but I'd love to have a set of good addresses for 2nd hand, especially if it's a good deal - new gear is often overpriced in Japan these days, especially when you can't make use of the tax refund because you have residency...
cheers

b

3 hours ago, bghazzal said:

Little side track but I'm curious - where do you shop for second-hand camera gear in Japan? Sofmap? Bic Camera? or do you have any specialist stores to recommend?
Most of the second-hand stuff i bought in Japan was on Mercari, but I'd love to have a set of good addresses for 2nd hand, especially if it's a good deal - new gear is often overpriced in Japan these days, especially when you can't make use of the tax refund because you have residency...
cheers

b

I use Map for online checking as the translation is good, I would visit Bic if in countryI do not know any real specialist stores unfortunately but will probably keep an eye out whilst in the usual places in Tokyo (Shibuya, Shinjuku and Akihabra etc). Although I expect I will probably use Map as the choice is always good, quality is high and prices keen.

The tax refund helps and FX rates moving upto 180 Y against GBP from 140 ish a couple of years a go is certainly helping.

New gear is certainly cheaper in Tokyo for example the OM systems OM-1 body  is  £1250+ and after tax under £1100 in Japan and will probably be cheaper if you shop around 

7 hours ago, bghazzal said:

Little side track but I'm curious - where do you shop for second-hand camera gear in Japan?

Oh, my, that question has me triggered - in a good way!  I was a regular visitor to Japan on business trips and frequently stayed an extra day just to explore and eat and shop.  I especially liked MAP as the selection is huge and they were usually friendly and helpful, which is not the case at some other secondhand stores.  It can be a really fun treasure hunt!  

Some tips I learned were to have photos of the gear I wanted on my phone as English speaking staff are rare, to bring my own gear (body, lens, batteries) to test their gear, and bring your passport for the tax rebate.  Also, most won’t haggle on price, though it doesn’t hurt to ask once politely, and your experience won’t be much fun if you are aggressive.  Finally, note that a lot of stuff on the web sites of secondhand stores is not available in the store itself but only for online sale and shipping to an address in Japan, which can still be a good deal if you’ve got a local friend. 

The best advice you’ll find (though not specifically for underwater gear) is at Japan Camera Hunter.  There’s a lot here so make a cuppa and get comfortable.

JCH Shopping guide - west

JCH shopping guide - east

There are of course stores for new gear and you’ll still get the tax rebate, which may make sense depending on your home market, though I always found them more expensive than my market in the USA.  Stores like BIC and Yodobashi have limited UW gear but are easy to find and navigate, the dive shop MIC21 has more, and Answer has a comprehensive selection.  I once stumbled across the Inon flagship store which was like a museum, but don’t remember anymore where it was.

MIC21 underwater gear

Answer underwater gear

Happy hunting!  

 

I have an advantage as my wife is Japanese so have a translator and we have a couple of family addresses in Japan I can use, however you need be able to explain what you want to non english speaking staff and your right bargaining is frowned upon, a cheeky one time ask is OK though.

Mic21 is good shop and often has some bargains, that is where I will pick up next set of strobes as a lot better value than Europe

Thanks for the tip of JCH another good area in general for second hand camera shops is Ueno however English will not be widely spoken in these shops and I normally spend a day around there anyway picking up obscure denim but JCH will probably save some leg work

Interesting, thanks - I actually speak/read/write japanese so language is not an issue, and my wife is also Japanese (and a dive instructor like myself) but overall we haven’t had much success finding cheap uw equipment in Japan, I must say.

My brother-in-law actually used to work at Yodobashi camera but that ship sailed years ago, unfortunately… 😅
Bargaining (or rather asking for a discount) is actually quite common in Osaka  - different culture from Tokyo though. Maybe it's different for photo gear, but I used to do it a lot for electronics when I was buying computer stuff a few years back- now that was a good deal!- in DenDen Town they'd usually whipout the calculator and tell you what can be done, no issues there.
I would still try and not worry about it too much - worse that can happen when asking for a waribiki is that they'll say no-can-do, right?

Interesting that you'd mention Mic21 - I’ve visited Mic21 a few times (the Osaka one, not Tokyo) but found gear to be generally more expensive that what I could get outside Japan (I was a resident so no tax rebate, unfortunately) especially prices for regs or computers which were really high compared to European prices, otherwise more locally Singapore was usually cheaper.

Back to Japan, just to give a current example, the Aqualung Legend Elite retails for ￥192,500 on the Mic21 website, so roughly 1,230 euros, where as the same model retails for 699 euros at Vieux Campeur in Paris...
Sure, Aqualung is still something of a French brand, but this also applied to other brands like Scubapro etc - we were actually buying quite a lot of dive gear in Europe for Japanese friends at some point, as it would save them quite a lot!

Japanese dive gear brands were usually cheaper in Japan of course, but other than wetsuits and gyosan I’m not a great fan of Bism, Reyson, Gull and the like.
Aqualung Japan actually has a product line aimed exclusively at the Japanese market, but same, not a great fan, and the prices, ouch....

You check out the prices at Divesea Singapore (given in Sg dollars) for reference here

Returning to imaging equipment, Fisheye is the main Japanese Nauticam importer, and their prices are pretty much are pretty much the same as what you would find elsewhere ( which I believe is a Nauticam policy),  the CMC-1 lens I’m interested in sells for $415 US in Japan, which is fairly standard (but if you get the tax rebate, that would knock of a little)


On Mercari however, this second-hand CMC1 sold for $286 US,  which is indeed a good deal if you can get it - but such specialised equipment isn't the most available. which is why I'm really interested in specialised UW gear shops offering 2nd hand goods

I’ve ritually checked prices on new camera bodies over the years, in places like Bic or Yodobashi to see if there were good deals to be had on Japanese brands, but like Troporobo mentioned pricing was on the same lines as what I could get elsewhere, or actually more expensive, so I kind of gave up.
The glorious 1980s when new Japanese-maker cameras were almost half the price are long gone…

But second hand, yes, and quality can be high. I’ve bought a lot of things on Mercari over the years which is way better than Rakuten for that btw.

I’ll keep the tips in mind for second-hand standard photo gear.
Now the yen is quite low which is good (for visitors...), and I revoked residency so could get the tax rebate next time I visit as a tourist.

On the tax rebate, please note that they migh be changing the system so that the refund is upon exiting the country like in many other places, see here

Sorry for the total off-topic spin out!

Edited December 23, 20231 yr by bghazzal

One question we didn't ask is which strobes you use, strobe power also scales with aperture as you generally need to stop down more with larger sensors.  F8 is perfectly adequate on m43 while you are looking at f11-13 for APS-C.  Shooting macro with the TG-6 doesn't need so much strobe power as you are so much closer and the lens is faster as well.

4 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

One question we didn't ask is which strobes you use, strobe power also scales with aperture as you generally need to stop down more with larger sensors.  F8 is perfectly adequate on m43 while you are looking at f11-13 for APS-C.  Shooting macro with the TG-6 doesn't need so much strobe power as you are so much closer and the lens is faster as well.

I have a pair of Symbiosis SS-2 at the moment, i think they have a number 33 but that might be over stated. At some point the strobes will change to either y3 or the replacement of the Z-330 if ever released, but camera will come first and replacement strobes will be at least 12 month later

At this stage OM-1 is looking doable with 3 lenses fro £3000 to £3500 mix of second hand, however the compromise is that is with the AOI housing, will not dive deeper than 45 metres, so depth not an issue but am concerned about the poor white balance for video not that video is the primary purpose 

@bghazzal agree with what you say.

Mic21 can be expensive for imported dive gear, but strobes and some accessories are a lot cheaper than Europe. My wife allow manages to pick up decent beachwear cheap and got her snorkelling kit there as masks etc fitted better and are prettier. Some of the dive computers were decently priced but some were expensive. A diver friend with a japanese wife picked up all her kit there as it was difficult to get correctly sized kit in Europe but she got a mix Gul and Western brands

Like you say the golden days for Japan was the 80 and 90's for new camera equipment by the 90's it was far cheaper in HK (if the triads didn't rip you off)  and Singapore than Japan generally. Electronics have been a mixed bag, generally prices similar but models used to be 8-12 months earlier than europe however this gap has reduced and apple products are more expensive than the States.  

The second hand market is very different and I still think there is value there compared to Europe and the quality/ choice is very good

So much of whether Japan is cheap is dependent on FX rates and converting from GBP in the last few years has been awful, but is getting better, it would be great if it would weaken by another 10% and then with the sales tax rebate it helps. The OM-1 set up I was looking at is about £500 cheaper if I buy lenses and body second hand in Japan than second hand in UK and £1200 cheaper than new kit.

The exception like you say is housings, these seem to have global pricing bar ikelite which is slightly cheaper through backscatter. So if I go down the Nauticam, Isotta or Aluminium route then I will be trying to get a deal of UK shop

I think the internet and visibility of pricing has ruined a lot of the pricing arbitrage across may sectors as it is definitely closer than it was, however there are still bargains to be had in sectors. I have a penchant for Japanese denim and that is 50% cheaper in Ueno  / Harajuku then I get in London or the USA
 

I am a little late to the party, but here my 2 cents:

I have experience with MFT and FF, but not APS-C. MTF is the system with the best lens repertoire, both for WA and macro. At least compared to FF, but I guess the situation with APS-C is similar. If I would go for a system with sensor smaller than FF, I would go MFT...

The negative side with MFT is, that the bit depth of the raw files is just 12 bit (not a problem of A/D converter, the small sensor just does not give a signal/noise ratio that makes 14 bit meaningful). This means that you have to be more careful with settings when making the photo, as there is less leeway for postprocessing (e.g. in LR). Some, very borderline, conditions just will not give good results...

 

When you go MFT:

Regarding WA, we (my wife and me) have and I recommend strongly the Tokina 10-17mm with both Metabones 1x and 0.71x converters, 34.7mm N85/N120 adapter,  20mm extension and Zen DP100. With this very compact (and not overly expensive) combination you have the equivalent AOVs as one would have on FF with the new FCP plus a WACP/WWL, what seem to be the most versatile ranges for many UW photographers. IQ is very good, much better than any rectilinear WA lens behind a dome...

For macro it is advisable that you select a camera body that has phase detection based AF, as this is working much better for macro. There are the 30mm (Zuiko&Pana), 45mm (Pana) and 60mm (Zuiko) macro lenses. My favorite is the 60mm. Later, the 90mm (Zuiko) macro lens is a tool for dedicated macro fans, that no other camera system has...

 

Regarding your budget, I would go for a second hand, high quality, aluminium housing (e.g. Nauticam, these are also available in higher numbers second hand). I believe that the difference between Oly OM-1 and EM1II (or the almost identical III) is very small for your needs, and for the EM1II you may find a real bargain (Chris could make a comparison from his own experience, as he has both cameras). For the OM-1, almost for sure, you will have to buy new. The big advantage with housings, as Nauticam, is, that you build up a system and later, after a couple of years, when the camera is really outdated, you only buy a new camera plus bare housing and continue to use all the rest. I am not sure whether the "bargain" plastic housings are even able to support all the wonderful lenses of a complete system and whether they keep to their own standards over time (Olympus plastic housings, the precessor of AOI, have e.g. three different standards of housings, not compatible with each other)...

You also do not need to buy the entire system at once and try to squeeze in everything for 5k $, possibly at the cost of a high quality and future proof solution (and then, after one or two years, invest another 5k $ into a completely new and also not future proof system). It would be enough to start with WA and then widen the repertoire to macro. Later to other specialities (standard range etc..)...

 

Good luck, Wolfgang

Edited December 23, 20231 yr by Architeuthis

3 hours ago, Mark Don said:

I have a pair of Symbiosis SS-2 at the moment, i think they have a number 33 but that might be over stated. At some point the strobes will change to either y3 or the replacement of the Z-330 if ever released, but camera will come first and replacement strobes will be at least 12 month later

At this stage OM-1 is looking doable with 3 lenses fro £3000 to £3500 mix of second hand, however the compromise is that is with the AOI housing, will not dive deeper than 45 metres, so depth not an issue but am concerned about the poor white balance for video not that video is the primary purpose 

I actually priced out an Isotta setup for a 60mm macro and 8mm fisheye in UK and the prices seemed quite good.  An EM-1 III would also work very well, I've had the EM-1 II for a long time and just started taking the OM-1 UW.  The main upgrade is faster AF and drive rate which is great for land based focus stacking but not so applicable UW.   So It's not a great difference going with an EM-1 III if you can get it at a good price.  I only went UW with the OM-1 as I had a intermittent issue with the EM-1 II and rather than sourcing another EM-1 II I got the housing for the OM-1 I already have.

I would guess if you are on a budget you would try to get a single dome for wide angle, or with the Canon 8-15 or Tokina 10-17 you could get a fisheye all the way through to about 26mm full frame equivalent (for the 8-15)  in one lens/dome so it would be like combining a fisheye with a 7-14 lens, only difference being the barrel distortion which reduces quite a bit as you zoom in.  But it could all be used behind the Isotta 4 1/2"dome.  The trade off being buying a Metabones adapter.

Thanks all for the help, you have basically given me really strong directions and after lots of reading around my current thoughts are:-

1 - Look for a second hand housing for Olympus EM-1 ii or newer or Sony 6400 or newer (hopefully 6500+)  either Nauticam of Isotta
2 - If I cannot find a set up by April then will look at a new Isotta set up for probably the OM-1. The isotta set up seems to be a lot better value than Nauticam both in base unit cost and accessories
3 - Aim for small dome, if Isotta housing will be a choice between Zen and their own one in glass
4 - First lens will be Tokina 10-16 with metabones adapter, although it appears that this lens will not do AF on video with an Olympus body, so may end up with a second WA lens for video 
5 - Ensure I have a leak detection system on the housing
6 - Body will probably be second had and picked up in Japan unless a deal pops up that is better value 
7 - Pick up a 60mm macro lens at a later date

 
I have steered clear of the canon range mainly due to cost and the fact that Isotta housings fro Canon are about a €1,000 more than Olympus and Sony

It will probably change a few times more times but at the moment these are the sets ups I keep coming back to 



 

Edited December 26, 20231 yr by Mark Don

34 minutes ago, Mark Don said:

Thanks all for the help, you have basically given me really strong directions

Excellent, Mark. Our role in life is to help members spend money.....

And, yeah, I'm sure you'll change your mind many times. That's all good thought, right, as you read more and get more and more into it.

4 hours ago, TimG said:

Our role in life is to help members spend money.....

We forgot to add it on the about page