Sony A7R V

Very cool first image, Phil

How are you finding the A7Rv? I assume it's different enough to require a new housing and an older A7Riv housing isn't compatible? I have a D500 setup with everything, but I wanted to upgrade to mirrorless for land based photography. Ideally I'd just have one camera for everything, but I'm concerned about Sony's macro lineup for 105 and 60 (blackwater diving).

2 hours ago, sinetwo said:

How are you finding the A7Rv? I assume it's different enough to require a new housing and an older A7Riv housing isn't compatible? I have a D500 setup with everything, but I wanted to upgrade to mirrorless for land based photography. Ideally I'd just have one camera for everything, but I'm concerned about Sony's macro lineup for 105 and 60 (blackwater diving).

Several improvements over the A7R IV but until I have a proper housing I will continue to use the Sony A1.

I would be happy to see a new 50-60 range macro from Sony but I find the 90mm to be excellent for blackwater with the Sony A1. 

Question remands why to use the A7RV. Its a good camera but I have the feeling its in a strange void between the A7 IV and the A1. I just don't know if it might be better just to save a few more bucks for the A1 or to buy the A7 IV if you don't wan't to spend that much money. 
Just ignore, I think to save 3k is a good reason. I had the impression the price gab was smaller between A7R V and the A1. 

Maybe @Phil Rudin got some more point for the A7RV which i missed. But I have the feeling that the A1 way more better than the A7R that its preferable to save the money for some more time to buy the highest tier in the Sony lineup. 

I would also be interested in why you are considering the A7RV if you've already got the A1 @Phil Rudin? Are there any advantages with the A7RV?

(Someone I spoke to with the A7Riv is seriously hating the macro capabilities and want to move back to Nikon DSLR, but I'm not sure what his gripes are...)

I would be interested in A1 vs R5 comparison too. From what I can see it seems there is very little reason to go for the A1 if you're only interested in photo and don't care about video. The reviews for A7R5 seem to indicate with the new AI capabilities, autofocus is now better than the A1, and EVF is the same. 

Synch speed for WA is obviously in favour of A1. For macro HSS negates this with the right lighting. I think the A7RV is very different to A7RIV, despite being its descendant.

I am interested in Phil's take on the AF and IQ between the A1 and A7RV, not sure anyone else has shot both underwater yet.

Price in favour of R5, plus you can buy an older a7 body as cheap backup to use in same housing. 

I think Nikon shooters will soon have a similar decision between Z9 and Z8, with pretty similar specs.

Alex

Synch speed for WA is obviously in favour of A1. For macro HSS negates this with the right lighting. I think the A7RV is very different to A7RIV, despite being its descendant. I am interested in Phil's take on the AF and IQ between the A1 and A7RV, not sure anyone else has shot both underwater yet.

Price in favour of R5, plus you can buy an older a7 body as cheap backup to use in same housing. 

I think Nikon shooters will soon have a similar decision between Z9 and Z8, with pretty similar specs.

Alex

 

 

From functionality point of view A7R5 has a new AF subject detection that recognises more shapes however in general terms the performance is not on par with the A1 that has the best AF on the market at present when measured on certain type of task such as birds in flight. Another issue of the R5 is that as the sensor reads slower tracking is less sticky than the A1

Other considerations: Sync speed: 1/250 vs 1/400, faster EVF refresh rate practically real time in the A1

For reference the AF of the A7IV is better than the A7R5.

The other significant issue of the A7R5 is rolling shutter that kills it from video perspective and low burst rate however those are not important for underwater shooter

The A1 costs almost 50% more than the A7RV but it is in another category altogether.

At midrange instead I would consider more the A7IV 33 megapixels but the LCD is really bad it has less rolling shutter not sure about sync speed but this is a camera I have considered more than the A7R5 as underwater I don't think you can actually resolve 50 megapixels anyway and closing down aperture makes resolution drop quickly on mirrorless anyway by f/11 on the A1 you are maxed out. At f/22 you are effectively at 15 megapixels so it is really the case of WACP or similar or you don't get the benefits

In my opinion for someone coming from DSLR should look into cameras that are more responsive with a high speed EVF as you will really feel the lag otherwise

Edit I have forgot the R5 has a better rating for autofocus in low light however to be frank my A1 sees in the dark except the 90mm macro this lens hunts off his own will

Re R5 vs R4 the sensor is identical the change is the processing pipeline and autofocus with deep learning and some other functions that will matter nothing to an underwater shooter

Daughter picked up the A7RV to be housed shortly. Shooting w/the 90mm on land it is significantly faster in AF than the A7RIV. Housing is ordered, we will see what it's like u/w in the spring.

It is a really interesting time. One where underwater testing has never been more important.

You can have a camera that is brilliant with birds in flight, but poor at focusing on a goby with a macro lens. One that can track a human through a forest, but won’t focus on the face of a turtle. 

I think the lesson is while the camera companies are trying to improve with each model, sometimes the software driven specialist capabilities might be game changers underwater and other times totally irrelevant. Sometimes the top of the range camera will be really worth having, sometimes a cheaper model will actually be best.

And what we need is real underwater experience. Not what we read on the manufacturer’s or dealer’s website. Not what we see on topside photography forums. But actual underwater experience from people, like Phil, testing them underwater. Or we could easily back the wrong horse.

5 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said:

Daughter picked up the A7RV to be housed shortly. Shooting w/the 90mm on land it is significantly faster in AF than the A7RIV. Housing is ordered, we will see what it's like u/w in the spring.

Hi Matt,

When you say "slow" and "fast" AF: does "slow" mean the lens is pumping back and forth for a long time until it finds the focus (or maybe never) and "fast" means it snaps right into focus without (much) pumping?

How about low light improvement (A7RIV vs. A7RV)? Does this matter in practice?

Wolfgang

@Alex_Mustard Fully agree...

We'll see what the A7RV (w/Nauticam housing) can do in Ambon in a few months.

My main reason for posting was the comment that AF on the A7IV was better than the A7RV. Having tried the A7IV in a pool, not really impressed with the AF in those conditions.

@Wolfgang

Without getting the A7RV in the water yet, much of what we've experienced personally is subjective. However, in low light (dusk) with both an A7RIV and an A7RV shooting similar subjects (albeit two different photographers) the AF (using a 90mm lens on subjects found in beach sand) for the A7RV locked on faster. The 90mm still hunts a bit at times, but there was noticeable differences between the cameras, with the A7RV able to lock on to subjects faster.

The conditions weren't such that they got to a point where the A7RV was pushed too far in low light.

2 hours ago, oneyellowtang said:

@Alex_Mustard Fully agree...

We'll see what the A7RV (w/Nauticam housing) can do in Ambon in a few months.

My main reason for posting was the comment that AF on the A7IV was better than the A7RV. Having tried the A7IV in a pool, not really impressed with the AF in those conditions.

 

But you have not tried the A7RV in the same pool so you don't know yet it may be worse?

Both camera read very slow but the A7RV reads slower I think something like 1/15.

With regards to R series V vs IV there is no reason to believe the IV is better in AF. Sony has improved the overall processing so you would hope the AF is better and more accurate in addition to adding subject detection

When I look at A1 vs A7RV I see no reason why I would get an A7RV but I am an hybrid shooter not a photographer so I have a different set of evaluation criteria. From what I can see the A1 focusseesin the dark but the 90mm lens has its own issue and pulsates a lot. The lens has tons of focus breathing and that mechanism does not help the behaviour

There is a Sigma 105mm but I got the Sony at a deal price so I was tempted. Macro is not really my top priority so I will make do but to give a point of reference my GH5M2 with Panasonic 45mm hunts less and it is faster in single AF

It appears that I am the first on Wetpixel to have used the Sony A7R V in the field and so I will try to answer a few more questions and make some observations. 

First I have used the A7R V with one lens the Sony FE 28-60 zoom for the purpose of testing the new Nauticam WACP-C. I chose the R V camera because high MP (61) cameras reveal flaws in lenses that lower MP cameras may not make so obvious. I currently have Nauticam and Marelux A1 housings in house and the A7R  V would only fit the Nauticam housing because of the different design philosophies between the two housings.

Please be aware that I review many of these systems for UWPMAG.com and other outlets, so my approach is different than many personally owned systems, 

Lets start with apples to apples, I see no upside to making a comparison of the A1 to the A7R V any more than comparing the A1 to the A7 IV or the Ikelite A1 housing to the Nauticam A1 housing. Most folks buy gear with a fairly narrow price point in mind. They also often buy equipment that exceeds current skill levels in hopes that better equipment rather than time in the water will improve results. This is true for terrestrial photographers as well bashing manufactures for not releasing an F/1.2 lens rather than a F/1.4 lens when many will see no difference in their results. 

Regarding the Sony A7R V it has several improvements over the A7R IV and R III and several other cameras at the same price point. One thing that Sony does more than other manufactures is trickle down new tech to lower price point cameras. The new A7R V and A7 IV have the same basic AF tech as the A-1 but with a big difference. The A7R V and A7 IV both have BSI-CMOS sensor while the Sony A-1 has a Stacked-CMOS sensor. What this means is that apples to apples, the A-1 is always going to have faster readout speeds than any camera without a Stacked sensor. This means that all data including AF speed will be faster. So no the A7R V will never AF as fast as A-1, it does however have updated AI technology that allows it to acquire some subjects more easily. They have also included in addition to people eyes, bird eyes, human body movement, insect  detection and much more. Insect detection is about as close to U/W animal detection as we have seen so far. This is something I intend to test with a macro lens when I get a proper housing. 

Other tech has been added to this camera not found in the A7R IV/III models. Some of these things may influence you to buy and others may not matter to you. The A7R V can use the CF express type A cards which move data faster, if you are using older cards your performance will lag just as it does not having a stacked sensor. This tech has trickled down from the $6500.00 A-1 to the $3900.00 A7R V and the $2500.00 A7 IV. The 5.76M-DOT EVF from A7R IV has been replace by the outstanding 9.44M-DOT X0.9 EVF from the A-1. IBIS has gone from the 5.5 stopsR IV  to 8 stops R V. 

As Alex pointed out above the A7R V has a sync speed of 1/250th of a second with mechanical shutter while the A1 has a 1/400th FF 1/500th APS-C sync speed. To be able to reach 1/400th on full frame with a mechanical sensor has nothing to do with the stacked sensor. Sony had to completely redesign the mechanical shutter by in the simplest of terms adding springs to accelerate the shutter movement over 1/250th of a second. This complete redesign did not make it into the much less expensive A7R V. This will also never make it into a camera like the Z9 with  which highest sync is 1/200th sec. This is because when shooting stills with flash and an electronic shutter speeds much above 1/200th how a distortion similar to rolling  shutter. 

As Alex pointed out you can equip the A7R V with a flash trigger that will work with HSS strobes like the Retra's or the new Backscatter MF-2's to get above 1/250th with mechanical shutter.

It appears that I am the first on Wetpixel to have used the Sony A7R V in the field and so I will try to answer a few more questions and make some observations. 
First I have used the A7R V with one lens the Sony FE 28-60 zoom for the purpose of testing the new Nauticam WACP-C. I chose the R V camera because high MP (61) cameras reveal flaws in lenses that lower MP cameras may not make so obvious. I currently have Nauticam and Marelux A1 housings in house and the A7R  V would only fit the Nauticam housing because of the different design philosophies between the two housings.
Please be aware that I review many of these systems for UWPMAG.com and other outlets, so my approach is different than many personally owned systems, 
Lets start with apples to apples, I see no upside to making a comparison of the A1 to the A7R V any more than comparing the A1 to the A7 IV or the Ikelite A1 housing to the Nauticam A1 housing. Most folks buy gear with a fairly narrow price point in mind. They also often buy equipment that exceeds current skill levels in hopes that better equipment rather than time in the water will improve results. This is true for terrestrial photographers as well bashing manufactures for not releasing an F/1.2 lens rather than a F/1.4 lens when many will see no difference in their results. 
Regarding the Sony A7R V it has several improvements over the A7R IV and R III and several other cameras at the same price point. One thing that Sony does more than other manufactures is trickle down new tech to lower price point cameras. The new A7R V and A7 IV have the same basic AF tech as the A-1 but with a big difference. The A7R V and A7 IV both have BSI-CMOS sensor while the Sony A-1 has a Stacked-CMOS sensor. What this means is that apples to apples, the A-1 is always going to have faster readout speeds than any camera without a Stacked sensor. This means that all data including AF speed will be faster. So no the A7R V will never AF as fast as A-1, it does however have updated AI technology that allows it to acquire some subjects more easily. They have also included in addition to people eyes, bird eyes, human body movement, insect  detection and much more. Insect detection is about as close to U/W animal detection as we have seen so far. This is something I intend to test with a macro lens when I get a proper housing. 
Other tech has been added to this camera not found in the A7R IV/III models. Some of these things may influence you to buy and others may not matter to you. The A7R V can use the CF express type A cards which move data faster, if you are using older cards your performance will lag just as it does not having a stacked sensor. This tech has trickled down from the $6500.00 A-1 to the $3900.00 A7R V and the $2500.00 A7 IV. The 5.76M-DOT EVF from A7R IV has been replace by the outstanding 9.44M-DOT X0.9 EVF from the A-1. IBIS has gone from the 5.5 stopsR IV  to 8 stops R V. 
As Alex pointed out above the A7R V has a sync speed of 1/250th of a second with mechanical shutter while the A1 has a 1/400th FF 1/500th APS-C sync speed. To be able to reach 1/400th on full frame with a mechanical sensor has nothing to do with the stacked sensor. Sony had to completely redesign the mechanical shutter by in the simplest of terms adding springs to accelerate the shutter movement over 1/250th of a second. This complete redesign did not make it into the much less expensive A7R V. This will also never make it into a camera like the Z9 with  which highest sync is 1/200th sec. This is because when shooting stills with flash and an electronic shutter speeds much above 1/200th how a distortion similar to rolling  shutter. 
As Alex pointed out you can equip the A7R V with a flash trigger that will work with HSS strobes like the Retra's or the new Backscatter MF-2's to get above 1/250th with mechanical shutter.
  

I am aware, since I use the EVF most of the time with an optical viewfinder the high res for me is about critical review of magnified images.

I am aware, since I use the EVF most of the time with an optical viewfinder the high res for me is about critical review of magnified images.
 

yes, I have the new Nauticam 0.8:1 viewfinder and it is outstanding with the EVF set to high.