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NEW - Backscatter Hybrid Flash

James Emery
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Chris Ross Leviathan

Chris Ross

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, DreiFish said:

The whole reason for CRI measurements is that the LEDs used in video lights don't produce the same full spectrum of colors found in halogen bulbs or sunlight. So the higher the CRI, the more 'natural' the light appears. LEDs have historically been very bright in some parts of the spectrum, but produced very little in other parts, like the reds.

 

Strobes with their zenon tubes don't have this issue. All zenon strobes are essentially CRI 100.


That's my understanding at least. Happy to be corrected and learn something new.

This is correct, a strobe is 100 CRI.  The light is produced by heating the Xenon in the tube to around 5000 kelvin and the radiation approximates black body radiation - a continuous spectrum.  Better quality LEDs can produce a more complete range of wavelengths that get close to the strobe but you pay $$$ for this.

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Dave_Hicks
Dave_Hicks

That ship has sailed. Every underwater flashlight in use today is Li-ion, and a good chunk of the strobes are as well. I've been using other Backscatter strobes run on 18650's for 4 years now, and the

Dave_Hicks
Dave_Hicks

My 3D print design for the HF-1 Power Knob slip over cover: https://makerworld.com/models/610783  

Jerry Diver
Jerry Diver

I have yet to come across a single reputable and popular land strobe manufacturer that uses loose Li-ion battery cells, such as 18650 or 21700, as the power source. Smaller strobes (speed-lights, etc.

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bghazzal Loggerhead

bghazzal

Posted
Posted (edited)

 Backscatter's dedicated video light, the MW4300, has LEDs with a CRI of 71.1 / 70.3 on which is a bit of a letdown compared to what is available on the market, especially since the light is otherwise well designed...
  Wondering if the CRI of the video light included in this strobe/light combo has improved, which could  herald an upgrade of the LEDs used in Backscatter video lights as well...

Edited by bghazzal
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turandot Blue Tang

turandot

Posted
Posted

One of the most important features of both of Backscatter's solutions (Video Light MW4300 and Hybrid Flash HF-1) is the user-replaceable battery system. I think it's a great idea (of course, always with quality batteries) and it should be the market trend. I mean standard 18650 or 21700 batteries, not batteries fitted into a pack with a proprietary system of the brands.

 

About the Backscatter MW4300, it's coming time for an upgrade: more power and better CRI with the same price and weight. 4 years without updates is a long time with the advancement of technology.

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Jerry Diver Moray Eel

Jerry Diver

Posted
Posted

I have yet to come across a single reputable and popular land strobe manufacturer that uses loose Li-ion battery cells, such as 18650 or 21700, as the power source. Smaller strobes (speed-lights, etc.) typically use NiMH batteries, while larger strobes use proprietary Li-ion battery packs.

 

The ongoing trend of using loose Li-ion cells in underwater strobes is driven purely by low-cost manufacturers who push these cells to enhance their spec sheets at minimal cost.

 

When single 21700 or 18650 Li-ion cells are used in products, there is no issue. However, we are now seeing dual cells and potentially triple cells in the future to improve performance. This is a very slippery slope, as Li-ion batteries in configurations of more than one cell require careful monitoring during discharge. Different batteries have different internal resistances, which can cause them to overly discharge. Proprietary battery packs effectively solve this issue by internally balancing their batteries, ensuring safety for users.

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turandot Blue Tang

turandot

Posted
Posted (edited)

I understand your approach @Jerry Diver, and I hope that brands do it because of what you mention. If it weren't for the fact that they triple the price of their batteries, when internally they carry 3-4 standard 18650 or 21700 batteries.

 

And watch out! that many packs "die" just because a single cell "dies" or does not give enough voltage and it is only possible to replace the entire proprietary battery packs.

 

The problem is low-cost standard batteries and unknown brands, or counterfeits. Another important issue is having a good charger that measures the amperage and voltage of standard batteries.

Edited by turandot
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CaolIla Hammerhead

CaolIla

Posted
Posted

And why didn't the strobe manufacturer use some 32650 ?  and why not put 2 of then in the strobe and add the management in the strobe and not in the batterie pack ?

Sorry if it's a stupid question .

 

I use 5 bigblue torch with 32650... very happy of this solution 

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John Liddiard Blue Tang

John Liddiard

Posted
Posted

Different airline and airport check-in rules vary. There is a usually a limit on the size of batteries that can be carried within a device. Over a certain size, they must be removed. Over another size and you may not be allowed to carry at all without a bunch of extra paperwork. Discrete and removable batteries mean you can't get caught in that trap.

 

Removable batteries can also be swapped out for a second set for a quick turn around. 

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turandot Blue Tang

turandot

Posted
Posted

The problem with the brands' proprietary battery packs is that if they stop manufacturing them, they leave you stranded. It has already happened to me with batteries from the X-Adventurer brand and one of their underwater video flashlight. Getting stranded with two underwater video spotlights is a big problem because of their high price and large investment.

 

That's why I like the system chosen by Backscatter for its Video light MW4300 and Hybrid Flash HF-1.

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DreiFish Hammerhead

DreiFish

Posted
Posted

I took the time to read through the manual (available for download from Backscatter's article)while waiting for my HF-1 to arrive (getting kinda excited here... ) and noticed a few interesting tidbits not mentioned in the review article or video:

 

Dimensions

  • 1140g in air, -250g negative in water (with batteries)
  • 94mm diameter, 162mm length

 

HSS

  • Note: Super FP/HSS reduces flash output compared to regular shooting. Only use it for close-up shooting. The flash will diminish the faster the shutter speed is set.
  • Note: The Hybrid Flash has one output power in HSS mode. Changing the shutter speed to dial in the flash exposure is the recommended method for altering the flash in the image.
  • Note: For HSS use, Sony cameras must have the Shutter type be mechanical and e-front curtain shutter (if offered as an option) must be off. If these menu settings are not made banding may appear in the image, which will worsen with faster shutter speeds. This setting is not specific to the Hybrid Flash, this is for any Sony camera being used with a HSS compatible flash. Please see your Sony camera instruction manual for more details.
  • Pro Tip: If you primarily shoot in TTL flash mode it is recommended to use the SC mode (rather than HSS mode) on the Hybrid Flash to do HSS as there are no changes needed to switch from normal TTL operation to HSS operation.

Remote Lighting Control (REM)

  • Note: It is possible to use a Mini Flash 2 as a main flash to send signals to a Hybrid Flash or to receive signals from a remote strobe from a Hybrid Flash. Since there are only 7 power levels on a Mini Flash 2 and 12 power levels on a Hybrid Flash, only the top 7 power levels will be able to be used in remote operation when combining a Mini Flash 2 with a Hybrid Flash.
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Jerry Diver Moray Eel

Jerry Diver

Posted
Posted
21 hours ago, turandot said:

I understand your approach @Jerry Diver, and I hope that brands do it because of what you mention. If it weren't for the fact that they triple the price of their batteries, when internally they carry 3-4 standard 18650 or 21700 batteries.

 

And watch out! that many packs "die" just because a single cell "dies" or does not give enough voltage and it is only possible to replace the entire proprietary battery packs.

 

The problem is low-cost standard batteries and unknown brands, or counterfeits. Another important issue is having a good charger that measures the amperage and voltage of standard batteries.

We can buy off-the-shelf batteries at a low price, but it's not as simple or cheap to make a safe and durable battery pack with multiple cells. When done right, each cell is measured for internal resistance and paired with similar ones. Off-the-shelf batteries don’t provide this info, but it’s crucial when combining cells.

 

A battery pack should "die" when one cell fails, which makes it safer than the alternatives.

 

I completely agree that proprietary battery packs are more expensive in many ways, but in my vie the cost is small compared to the potential risks of carrying high-capacity loose Li-ion cells and charging them on liveaboards, etc.

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TURTLE-Balage Seahorse

TURTLE-Balage

Posted
Posted

HI...
 

I bought an HF-1, but it doesn't turn on. When I turn the rotary switch, the control LED flashes blue for a moment and then goes out. It doesn't light up green. Has anyone encountered this problem?
The accus:  21700type  3,6 V   5000mAh.  

Dave_Hicks Dolphin

Dave_Hicks

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, TURTLE-Balage said:

HI...
 

I bought an HF-1, but it doesn't turn on. When I turn the rotary switch, the control LED flashes blue for a moment and then goes out. It doesn't light up green. Has anyone encountered this problem?
The accus:  21700type  3,6 V   5000mAh.  

Call or email Backscatter. If you are not using the specified Nitecore battery, which has a specific 20amp draw specification, then get the correct battery. I ordered a couple of pair with my HF-1s.

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TURTLE-Balage Seahorse

TURTLE-Balage

Posted
Posted

HI.   
I bought a new 21700 li-ion accus from panasonic which is 5000mAh also but the current is 35 A maximum and the strobe works with them. 

So the conclusion is the mimimum current is 20A. 

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Dave_Hicks Dolphin

Dave_Hicks

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, TURTLE-Balage said:

HI.   
I bought a new 21700 li-ion accus from panasonic which is 5000mAh also but the current is 35 A maximum and the strobe works with them. 

So the conclusion is the mimimum current is 20A. 

Thanks for confirming that. Can you share a link to the battery you found to work?

 

ps: Accus is french for battery. Had to look it up.

 

 

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Architeuthis Dolphin

Architeuthis

Posted
Posted (edited)

Just a little more info on the HF-1 accus. There is a very long tread on Scubaboard about the HF-1 flashes:

 

https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/backscatter-hybrid-flash-hf-01-preliminary-review.645397/page-3

 

On page 3 Jim Decker from Backscatter says the following (people were disputing about other 21700 accus to use):

 

"...Just want to clear up the battery debate. The Hybrid Flash requires 21700 batteries with at least 15A current. Currently Nitecore has 5300 and 6000mah batteries with a 20A draw, which is what we recommend and the only batteries we approve right now for the Hybrid Flash. The Xtar 21700 batteries only have a 10A draw which is fine for the Mini Flash 2 and Macro Wide 4300 video light. The Xtar batteries internal protection circuitry will shut down the battery when drawing more than 10A current. This will happen immediately when turning on the flash as it starts to charge the capacitors. The protection circuit prevents over discharge, and this is why you should always use protected Li-ion batteries in consumer devices! :thumb:..."

Edited by Architeuthis
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hellhole Reef Shark

hellhole

Posted
Posted

a friend email them on the 6000mAh nitecore batt very early on .... and they did reply that they will check out on it... i guess the results are positive...

 

i think its okay to write an email to them to asked about the battery in question...perhaps they will check it out... if they can get their hands on it...

 

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humu9679 Blue Whale

humu9679

Posted
Posted
On 7/3/2024 at 3:32 PM, hellhole said:

hey nice people...

 

has anyone got hss working on a non-olympus system?

I tried HSS with my Sony A7c, and it doesn't work with a UW Technics or Nauticam manual trigger. I wonder if we will be able to get this to work when Backscatter releases their TTL trigger. The UW Technics limits the sync speed to 1/160th second (factory max) and the Nauticam will allow you to fire at up to 1/200th second, but will cause banding faster than that. Though the A7c is not advertised as being able to use HSS, it does work with my Sony HVL-F32M flash.

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shokwaav Barracuda

shokwaav

Posted
Posted
On 7/12/2024 at 10:45 PM, hellhole said:

a friend email them on the 6000mAh nitecore batt very early on .... and they did reply that they will check out on it... i guess the results are positive...

 

i think its okay to write an email to them to asked about the battery in question...perhaps they will check it out... if they can get their hands on it...

 

The NL2160HP doesn't work for me. It's slightly too big and it's too tight a fit if you put it in the flash. The strobe wouldn't turn on and I had to pry the batteries back out. Of course YMMV.

hellhole Reef Shark

hellhole

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, shokwaav said:

The NL2160HP doesn't work for me. It's slightly too big and it's too tight a fit if you put it in the flash. The strobe wouldn't turn on and I had to pry the batteries back out. Of course YMMV.

really??.. worked for me... but i will continue to monitor..  thanks

hellhole Reef Shark

hellhole

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, humu9679 said:

I tried HSS with my Sony A7c, and it doesn't work with a UW Technics or Nauticam manual trigger. I wonder if we will be able to get this to work when Backscatter releases their TTL trigger. The UW Technics limits the sync speed to 1/160th second (factory max) and the Nauticam will allow you to fire at up to 1/200th second, but will cause banding faster than that. Though the A7c is not advertised as being able to use HSS, it does work with my Sony HVL-F32M flash.

okay... that 1/160th is the limit for a7c?  

 

hope the sony circuit for HF-1 will be out soon...   or some update can be done on the uw technics...

shokwaav Barracuda

shokwaav

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, hellhole said:

really??.. worked for me... but i will continue to monitor..  thanks

 

I guess the tolerance is really tight. The NL2153HP has a diameter of 21.5mm +/- 0.3mm, while the NL2160HP has a diameter of 22mm +/- 0.3mm. I might have gotten two NL2160HP's on the higher end of the spectrum which would be more than 2mm in difference from the two of the smallest NL2153HPs. 

hellhole Reef Shark

hellhole

Posted
Posted

ooo... i just measured mine... with my low grade vernier caliper ... points between 22mm and 23mm

putting into the strobe.. there is some wiggle room

  • 1 month later...
DiverDawn Anemone

DiverDawn

Posted
Posted

Friends tried the new hybrid flashes out at the Digital Shootout.  The photos were pretty and they raved about the soft, even lighting.  They ordered them right away.  I’m more hesitant as the only flash I’ve any experience with is the MF2.  The only complaint I’ve heard so far has been expressed here; the dials can be hard to operate with heavy gloves in cold water.  The 3D printed dial cover is a great work around.   

Friends tried the new hybrid flashes out at the Digital Shootout.  The photos were pretty and they raved about the soft, even lighting.  They ordered them right away.  I’m more hesitant as the only flash I’ve any experience with is the MF2.  The only complaint I’ve heard so far has been expressed here; the dials can be hard to operate with heavy gloves in cold water.  The 3D printed dial cover is a great work around.   

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