Architeuthis Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) Great information, thanks to you and Backscatter ... 👍 Now we know that Chris's analysis gives valid numbers and also can compare the zones between the RETRA testing (in air at 60 cm distance) and the Backscatter testing (in water at distance of 1m). Here the beam angles of the different zones (for Retra calculated from Pythagoras and angular functions): Edited June 17 by Architeuthis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vkalia Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 On 6/12/2024 at 10:34 PM, Dave_Hicks said: The reality is that award winning images have been made with every single one of these strobe models. They are all capable of contributing to the creation of incredible artwork in the right hands. Buy the one that you can afford and trust for reasonable service &support with a set of features you value. This ^^^ I’ve been using Inon strobes since 2005 - except for a brief (and regrettable dalliance with Sea&Sea in 2019 that i would much rather forget), and recently switched to Supe D-Pros. After a point, I think all strobes have sufficient power - even the Inons were bright enough to let me get good starbursts, etc in shots like this: I did recently switch to Supe D-Pros because their battery life is fantastic (being able to go a couple of days of shooting without needing to recharge is aces in my book), their significantly wider beam coverage and the fast re-charge. I dont think i have ever gone above 60-70% on power there (and rarely have i used 100% even on the Inons), TBH, so i am not sure what more power would get me - it certainly wouldn’t let me shoot stuff further away. I have been following this thread with interest (because i like learning about the technicalities of gear) but am also a little perplexed about things that don’t really matter much in the real world (eg, minor differences in center vs peripheral brightness). It’s certainly useful to know these things and i appreciate the rigor that is going into the analysis - but does this really help with decision making on a buy/no-buy decision? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipBPhoto Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) 5 hours ago, vkalia said: It’s certainly useful to know these things and i appreciate the rigor that is going into the analysis - but does this really help with decision making on a buy/no-buy decision? @vkalia - terrific image! I agree this is interesting information, and certainly a very deep dive. There are some who prefer to dig into the micro details, while others are more visually influenced by the results, or motivated more by cost, availability, or what others in their local group use. It is somewhat like those that like to pixel peep and those that enjoy an image in its entirety. The beauty of this tread is we can take from it that which is important to us personally. We are fortunate to now have so many different pieces of quality gear from which to choose, and different voices to share information. Edited June 17 by ChipBPhoto 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vkalia Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) 19 minutes ago, ChipBPhoto said: @vkalia - terrific image! I agree this is interesting information, and certainly a very deep dive. There are some who prefer to dig into the micro details, while others are more visually influenced by the results, or motivated more by cost, availability, or what others in their local group use. It is somewhat like those that like to pixel peep and those that enjoy an image in its entirety. The beauty of this tread is we can take from it that which is important to us personally. Quite frankly we are fortunate to now have so many different pieces of quality gear from which to choose, and different voices to share information. Fair point, and my apologies if i came across as being dismissive. That was not my intent. I do find the content very educational as well (although it does boost my GAS significantly and make me feel that without that one additional bit of kit, i wont be able to take a photo worth a damn! 🙂) PS: thanks for the kind words about the image Edited June 17 by vkalia 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipBPhoto Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, vkalia said: Fair point, and my apologies if i came across as being dismissive. No worries at all. I did not take it as anything but a very fair point. I was just sharing we can all pick out the pieces that best resonate with each of us. My apologies if it came across any other way. Please keep sharing the good feedback and opinions, and of course the great images! Edited June 17 by ChipBPhoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Those are all good points! I just wanted to add that a better quality of light (wide even beam, color temperature) does not make a picture better per se. It just makes it easier to get good lighting in the pictures from my experience. My older strobes were much more prone to give hotspots, so I had to move them around more often, correcting the position a bit here, then again and again after that. The better the strobe, the more "forgiving" it is: You just have to spend less time with strobe positioning and post processing. Also for myself I found it hard to get the pictures on the same level with post processing, as just getting the shot right in cam and then process from there. So less correcting in post processing, more improving the image in post processing. Also it should be noted that as we get more into High-End stuff, the price to performance ratio decreases rapidly. You will end up paying 2 or 3 times a price for getting maybe 10% more. Which might be worth it for some, but not for others. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreiFish Posted June 17 Author Share Posted June 17 I think it's useful when comparison shopping to understand what you get by paying 2x-3x the price. So this technical analysis is useful for me for that purpose, and may be useful to others also to identify the right strobe for more esoteric/individual needs (like size, color temperature, recycling times, etc). I really wish we could get similar numbers on some of the more expensive strobes like the Seacam 160Ds, OneUWs, and Hartenberger 270. So we can understand what we get for the 2-3x price uptick. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ross Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 It is often reported that the quality of light is better with the ring flash strobes, I haven't been in a position to experience this, only ever shooting with INON Z-240, but personally know a few people who swear by the light quality improvement. This is a very subjective improvement and not one you can demonstrate with testing so easily except perhaps to show that the light falloff is less. All reports seem to indicate that the Retra strobes are quite similar to the big guns in this regard. On the technical discussion versus end results, some people can look at graphs and plots and understand what the impact on results is, others it doesn't help. Publishing an image really only shows that in the hands of the photographer in question that strobe produces a good looking image. It's very hard to look at a pair of photographs of different scenes and say you like one strobe better than the other. Ideally the same scene on the same day with two different strobes might help but it's hard to tell if the differences are due to the strobe or small position changes of camera and strobes by the photographer. Both the technical and artistic approaches have value and ideally using a balanced approach to selecting gear surely must be the ideal situation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Architeuthis Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chris Ross said: It is often reported that the quality of light is better with the ring flash strobes, I haven't been in a position to experience this, only ever shooting with INON Z-240, but personally know a few people who swear by the light quality improvement. This is a very subjective improvement and not one you can demonstrate with testing so easily except perhaps to show that the light falloff is less. All reports seem to indicate that the Retra strobes are quite similar to the big guns in this regard. On the technical discussion versus end results, some people can look at graphs and plots and understand what the impact on results is, others it doesn't help. Publishing an image really only shows that in the hands of the photographer in question that strobe produces a good looking image. It's very hard to look at a pair of photographs of different scenes and say you like one strobe better than the other. Ideally the same scene on the same day with two different strobes might help but it's hard to tell if the differences are due to the strobe or small position changes of camera and strobes by the photographer. Both the technical and artistic approaches have value and ideally using a balanced approach to selecting gear surely must be the ideal situation. Thank you for doing the analysis on the Backscatter test photos. I find them very interesting and revealing... #1.: As you pointed out rightfully after your analysis, there is indeed a difference between light distribution between linear and circular flash tubes. It seems there is no "magic" between different strobe brands, but instead the shape of the flash tube matters. Circular flashtubes just produce evener lighting (what remains to be shown with further test photos)... #2.: Second point is color temperature. Some say they do not mind, but others say it is very important. Good when there are filters available (for those who care), but better the strobe is powerful then, as the filters will take away a lot of light... #3.: There are also other, more technical, items as recycle time, HSS, remote control.. etc. that are also important for some of us... Good that different UW-photographers have different preferences what a strobe should deliver (some say any strobe will do it, what is also o.k.). No matter what the preferences are, careful test photos, as the ones produced by Backscatter and analysed by you, will be a precious help for many of us (as is the valued opinion of UW-photographers from their practical expereince)... => In this spirit, I hope you will continue to analyse new test photos, as they will appear (e.g Marelux Apollo). I suggest you produce an article here that is open and can be updated as new test photos become available... Wolfgang Edited June 19 by Architeuthis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Oblak Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 On 6/17/2024 at 6:12 PM, ChrisH said: Those are all good points! I just wanted to add that a better quality of light (wide even beam, color temperature) does not make a picture better per se. It just makes it easier to get good lighting in the pictures from my experience. This is a good point. But I'll take a flash with an even beam just about every time instead of a flash which is prone to hotspots and requires more fiddling to get nice and even lighting. Why? I shoot mostly in the Adriatic sea where the critters are more skittish and don't like you getting too close. I have plenty of photos where in the first shot of the series there was full of fish and by the time I managed to set up my strobes perfectly, most of them were gone by then and all you are left with is an empty scene. But usually my first shot is either under- or overexposed, has hotspots or lots of backscatter because of wrong position & power level. So if a flash is able to give me nice and pleasant lighting without too much fiddling, then there's a much bigger chance that a photo will be a keeper. But this is of course just my experience and I know that it doesn't apply to each and every one 🙂 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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