SUPE Scubalamp warranty / replacement procedure - a little feedback & caveat

[bghazzal]

Hello all,

Currently in east Bali, Indonesia I've been focusing on macro video for the past few months, and very quickly realised I would need to up my game in terms of underwater lights. 
This, along with a growing interest in black backgrounds soon led me on the path of snoot video lights, and my first purchase was a reasonably priced
SUPE (Scubalamp) MS-10 snoot light:

https://scubalampusa.com/products/ms10

And the MS-10 snoot light turned out to be quite nice, 100,000 lx @ 100mm, 1000 lm, strong directional beam, multiple power settings and an attachment to further reduce the optical snoot beam for tiny subjects (this video was shot with it for instance).

I was still figuring it out when the light died out during a dive, roughly 2.5 months after purchase.
Cause was water ingress through the push button - this was quite clear as I actually saw little bubbles come out of the button after pressing it during the dive, light has colour LED array around the button which buzzed out during the dive, and the snoot light header for dive-light paradise there and then in the warm waters of the Lombok Strait...
Back on land, what I had seen during the dive was confirmed - battery compartment was completely dry (I'm still using the battery which was in the light to this day), completely clean and uncorroded, but there was water in the main (sealed-off) unit.

The leak came from the light's single push-button, and to nip the suspense in the bud, this is not a post about o-rings, user-serviceable superchargers parts, product quality and leak responsability issues, but something else: the timeframe and procedure for the replacement for a defective product.

***
After the light died out, I contacted SUPE / Scubalamp customer service to see what could be done, and they told me get in touch with one of their 3 Indonesian distibutors / retailers, since the product was still under warranty.

Which I did immediately, explaining the situation - their Bali-based Indonesian retailer was responsive, and asked me to send it in for inspection, which I did.

10 days later, on August 30 2023, the retailer contacted me saying that:

"I just got the information that the factory will give the replacement to our shop, and you need to wait it. Usually take a few month"

All good then.

***
I must admit I didn't pay much attention to the "a few months" part at the time, thinking this was probably just a bit of jam karet, Indonesian "rubber-time", aimed at soliciting the necessary patience to cover the minimum 1-month wait incurred for all (non-express) shipping endeavours from the Middle Kingdom to the isles of Indonesia...

Big mistake.

Today, as I write on December 19, 2023, my defective Scubalamp SUPE MS-10 snoot light still hasn't been replaced, and I don't know when it will be.

***

Since then, I've followed-up on the replacement multiple times with the Bali-based retailer, and also with SUPE customer service, but there is still no replacement light in sight...

In our globalised, intertwined world of multiple delivery options and services, where even a grain of salt could (probably) be delivered to one's home by legions of toiling couriers, why is this defective light replacement process taking nearly 4 months already (and probably more), one might wonder.

Well, it's not so much that SUPE / Scubalamp has opted for some radical slow-life eco-friendly shipping by foot, bicycle and sailboat to Indonesia but rather because of their procedure:
From what I've understood from our exchanges, in such situations ( = replacement of a defective product still under warranty) SUPE / Scubalamp manufacturer / factory does not proceed to ship a replacement of the defective product directly to the customer or to their local distributor/retailer.

Instead, it is the local distributor retailer who needs to place the order for a replacement to SUPE Scubalamp which -  in this case at least -  is done through their standard Purchase Order system (= grouping orders to save on shipping/import costs).

And this is where things start getting complicated -  in my case the Bali-based retailer placed their PO / order to SUPE/Scubalamp at the end of October (even though I had been informed that the defective light would be replaced by SUPE/Scubalamp on August 30.)

Thus, I still do not know when it will arrive in Bali.
 

SUPE/Scubalamp customer service has actually confirmed this situation by email today: 

Hello Ben，

Normally, we only ship to agents if they place an order with us. If the store promises you a replacement, but if they don't have it in stock, they'll wait until the next time

they buy products from us and that list might include your product. So I suggest you check with the store.

 

 I might be getting a little paranoid, but I must say that don't like the sound of that "might" now... 🙄


Anyway, so it goes - just a little feedback, and heads-up to all potential future SUPE / SCUBALAMP customers.
Be aware that if you end up having to replace a product, even in the case of a defective product under warranty like mine, you might be in for a rather long wait, as your retailer might be responsible for ordering your replacement, which might take a while for it to "might" be included in their next PO to Scubalamp / SUPE.

 

I don't know if this is common practice, but I've never really encountered such an issue when dealing with warranty / product replacement issues before.

 

***

Here are some screenshots of some of the key exchanges with the retailer and SUPE / Scubalamp customer service

 

Bali-based retailer, 10 days after sending it for inspection: 30/08/2023:

 

Last retailer follow-ups on 07/11/23, then 18/12/23:

 

SUPE customer service email, 19/12/23:
 

An interesting little detail is that in this case SUPE/Scubalamp customer service seems to imply that the distributor/retailer ("the store" / "agents") is in charge of honouring the warranty, whereas the distributor/retailer seems to imply that it is SUPE/Scubalamp ( "the factory") issuing the replacement, which to me seems a little more logical and standard as a procedure, but who knows.

***

Anyway, such is life, and wishing you all happy bubbles - coming out of regulators more than video light buttons - and happy holidays!

cheers

ben

Edited December 19, 2023 by bghazzal

[Davide DB]

What can I say... kudos to the commitment of the company.

It seems unbelievable to me and frankly the retailer doesn't look good either. I don't know him and can't assess his business. And maybe he didn't have another identical lamp available.
From what you write, the retailer wanted to make sure that the fault was not due to misuse, and then he started the replacement process with the company. But if the company gave him the OK for the replacement, what is the point of making the customer waiting months to receive the replacement part? Can't he just give you a lamp he has at the shop right away?

The company certainly wants to limit shipping costs by avoiding them for broken goods that will travel with the orders. But you don't necessarily wait for these times. The problem seems to me to be more with the retailer. A serious company would make an exception to this rule in the event that a shopkeeper lacks the replacement goods.

Personally, I have seen several times retailers please the customer by exchanging the defective item immediately and then handle the replacement with the company in the time required. It is a matter of trust between all parties.

In the price of our expensive toys, the value of after-sales service must also be considered.

[Chris Ross]

Warranty is only as good as the implementation and co-operation of the various cogs in the supply chain.  I'm sure this is not the first time such issues have happened.  I'm quite sure it will vary from country to country, but here is Australia warranty is the legal responsibility of the importer who brings it into the country, so for example if you buy a grey market item by direct import, you are the importer and responsible for warranty, however if buy a grey market item from a store in Australia - they are responsible.  If warranty is to be legislated it makes sense that the legislation will place responsibility upon an in country entity where there is a chance at least that the rules may be enforced.

These days in Australia, a lot of things UW based are not in stock and ordered in, the difference here being that the equipment comes in within a week of order assuming of course the supplier has it.

Often a good approach is to post about your woes on the companies Facebook page rather than through private email if things are dragging on.  You are in that situation because of the policies of SUPE and there may or may not be good reasons behind it.  I suspect part of it could be to avoid having to pay import charges?  Australia has good setup for warranty returns so that repaired or replacement items can be sent back without charging duty again.  Indonesia may be different of course. 

[bghazzal]

10 hours ago, Davide DB said:

What can I say... kudos to the commitment of the company.

It seems unbelievable to me and frankly the retailer doesn't look good either. I don't know him and can't assess his business. And maybe he didn't have another identical lamp available.
From what you write, the retailer wanted to make sure that the fault was not due to misuse, and then he started the replacement process with the company. But if the company gave him the OK for the replacement, what is the point of making the customer waiting months to receive the replacement part? Can't he just give you a lamp he has at the shop right away?

The company certainly wants to limit shipping costs by avoiding them for broken goods that will travel with the orders. But you don't necessarily wait for these times. The problem seems to me to be more with the retailer. A serious company would make an exception to this rule in the event that a shopkeeper lacks the replacement goods.

Personally, I have seen several times retailers please the customer by exchanging the defective item immediately and then handle the replacement with the company in the time required. It is a matter of trust between all parties.

In the price of our expensive toys, the value of after-sales service must also be considered.

Yes, I agree - it's a major letdown and should be a warning to future SUPE / Scubalamp customers, since the brand seems to be trying to position itself as a less-generic UW photo equipment brand at the moment.

The retailer I went through is probably the biggest UW equipment (including dive gear, not just imaging) in Bali now - the other options given were a retailed in Surabaya, and one based in Jakarta.

The Jakarta-based distributor is actually very well known and only does UW imaging equipment, good reputation, also with a main branch in Singapore.
I regret not having gone through them, but since I am in Bali and bought it through the Bali-distributor, and needed it to send it back for inspection, it seemed logical to go through their Bali distributor/retailer...

Yes, the retailer apparently didn't have the lamp in stock, but unapologetically sending a PO late October for a replacement validated in August seems a little dodgy to start with...
In this situation, regardless of who the responsability lies with (the manufacturer for having issued a defective product, the distributor for having sold one), one would thing that there would be some coordination between the distributor and manufacturer to avoid months of waiting for a replacement.

A month, for shipping, yes sure. Two months, ok, it's a bit slow but still understandable - 3, 4 months or more, it doesn't really make sense anymore, as this is a product sold worldwide, with 3 distributors in Indonesia and others in neighbouring ASEAN countries, so surely something could be worked out.

As a customer, I don't expect to be always right or treated like a king, but this kind of treatment feels like SUPE/SCUBALAMP and their Balinese distributor couldn't care less.
And I feel that the manufacturer itself chould take some initiative to try and solve this, since they have been notified from the start and have 3 distributors in the country.
b

Edited December 20, 2023 by bghazzal

[Davide DB]

As Chris suggested, write everything on SUPE SN channels

[bghazzal]

4 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

Warranty is only as good as the implementation and co-operation of the various cogs in the supply chain.  I'm sure this is not the first time such issues have happened.  I'm quite sure it will vary from country to country, but here is Australia warranty is the legal responsibility of the importer who brings it into the country, so for example if you buy a grey market item by direct import, you are the importer and responsible for warranty, however if buy a grey market item from a store in Australia - they are responsible.  If warranty is to be legislated it makes sense that the legislation will place responsibility upon an in country entity where there is a chance at least that the rules may be enforced.

These days in Australia, a lot of things UW based are not in stock and ordered in, the difference here being that the equipment comes in within a week of order assuming of course the supplier has it.

Often a good approach is to post about your woes on the companies Facebook page rather than through private email if things are dragging on.  You are in that situation because of the policies of SUPE and there may or may not be good reasons behind it.  I suspect part of it could be to avoid having to pay import charges?  Australia has good setup for warranty returns so that repaired or replacement items can be sent back without charging duty again.  Indonesia may be different of course. 

Thanks Chris, good to know - it's actually the first time I've been placed in a situation like this.

I've had a few replacement issued over the years, including in South-East Asia - Thailand for instance - but in most cases the manufacturer was shipping to their distributor, who then handled the replacement - but this was for bigger brands like Aqualung for instance.
The retailer acted like an intermediary, handling the testing / assessment, return process to the the manufacturer, then the issuing of a replacement to the end-customer.
it wasn't always super smooth, but once the issuing of a replacement (or repairs) had been anounced, it was processed straight away, and there was only to wait for the repairs and/or shipping back to the distributor, which was also usually done in weeks.

For even bigger brands like Panasonic or LaCie / Seagate, it's easier as they have a local branch, which liaises both with local distributors and the main company - I've sent back a camera to Panasonic in Bangkok, and a hard-drive to LaCie/Seagate in Jakarta - this was really smooth.
Contact the distributor/retailer, who activates the warranty process, send back to the local branch of the company, and wait for replacement/repairs, either shipped back to the distributor or customer.

Returning back to this specific case, standard cargo shipping from China to Indonesia is around a month, and there are quicker air-freight options, so it's really a question of how the process was handled.
Indeed, duty / import fees are pretty hellish in Indonesia, but I've heard there is a system of permits in place for repairs - you obtain a re-import permit from customs for the item to be repaired - this would be the responsiblity of the distributor/distributor in this situation, who probably prefered to have me wait for their next PO instead.
 

I understand  what you write about the division of warranty responsiblity between the manufacturer and importer/distributor, and agree with the logic, but in this situation it's not too clear. The distributor mentions "the factory" as issuing the replacement for a defective product, so it wasn't unilaterally their decision.

I actually asked SUPE/Scubalamp customer service about this yesterday, to clarify who was handling the warranty / replacement in this case, and got the following answer today:

"Generally if you purchased the product from a reseller or you live in a place where we have a reseller, we prefer you to go to the reseller, which will be more convenient. But if all the above conditions can not be met, our factory side is also available after-sales."

Ultimately, the responsiblity for the wait probably does lie with the distributor/retailer's offhand handling of the process - but SUPE/Scubalamp was clearly informed of the situation, most likely validated the warranty-claim somewhere along the line, and yet did not take any action to ensure a swift resolution.

 Hadn't thought of the Facebook option, thanks for the tip, I'll keep it in mind!

cheers

b

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by bghazzal

[Chris Ross]

4 hours ago, bghazzal said:

Thanks Chris, good to know - it's actually the first time I've been placed in a situation like this.

I've had a few replacement issued over the years, including in South-East Asia - Thailand for instance - but in most cases the manufacturer was shipping to their distributor, who then handled the replacement - but this was for bigger brands like Aqualung for instance.
The retailer acted like an intermediary, handling the testing / assessment, return process to the the manufacturer, then the issuing of a replacement to the end-customer.
it wasn't always super smooth, but once the issuing of a replacement (or repairs) had been anounced, it was processed straight away, and there was only to wait for the repairs and/or shipping back to the distributor, which was also usually done in weeks.

For even bigger brands like Panasonic or LaCie / Seagate, it's easier as they have a local branch, which liaises both with local distributors and the main company - I've sent back a camera to Panasonic in Bangkok, and a hard-drive to LaCie/Seagate in Jakarta - this was really smooth.
Contact the distributor/retailer, who activates the warranty process, send back to the local branch of the company, and wait for replacement/repairs, either shipped back to the distributor or customer.

Returning back to this specific case, standard cargo shipping from China to Indonesia is around a month, and there are quicker air-freight options, so it's really a question of how the process was handled.
Indeed, duty / import fees are pretty hellish in Indonesia, but I've heard there is a system of permits in place for repairs - you obtain a re-import permit from customs for the item to be repaired - this would be the responsiblity of the distributor/distributor in this situation, who probably prefered to have me wait for their next PO instead.
 

I understand  what you write about the division of warranty responsiblity between the manufacturer and importer/distributor, and agree with the logic, but in this situation it's not too clear. The distributor mentions "the factory" as issuing the replacement for a defective product, so it wasn't unilaterally their decision.

I actually asked SUPE/Scubalamp customer service about this yesterday, to clarify who was handling the warranty / replacement in this case, and got the following answer today:

"Generally if you purchased the product from a reseller or you live in a place where we have a reseller, we prefer you to go to the reseller, which will be more convenient. But if all the above conditions can not be met, our factory side is also available after-sales."

Ultimately, the responsiblity for the wait probably does lie with the distributor/retailer's offhand handling of the process - but SUPE/Scubalamp was clearly informed of the situation, most likely validated the warranty-claim somewhere along the line, and yet did not take any action to ensure a swift resolution.

 Hadn't thought of the Facebook option, thanks for the tip, I'll keep it in mind!

cheers

b

 

Well I think the first thing I would do is reply to customer service and tell them in this case it's not more convenient and it's been 4 months already and I'm still without a lamp and by the way I expect the warranty to be extended as I've been without the product for so long already.

[TimG]

Seems pretty poor service to me if the attitude of the supplier and the company is, well when we decide to get around to it, we'll look at sending you a replacement. Yowzers.

[bghazzal]

The distributor has just informed me that their order is now in Indonesia, and should be available after Christmas, so there might be some resolution in sight.

"Hello, good morning mr, We really apologize for this inconvenience mr, about the SUPE shipment just arrived in our branch in Surabaya, and they will send it to bali today. As we said before it takes around 2-3 month from October, that mean still in shipping estimation. and your replacement will be arrive after christmas day because the expedition was closed when christmast day"

To which I answered that the issue wasn't so much respecting the shipping estimation as the actual length of the delay (3 months and 3 weeks, if it does arrive after Christmas day), and that this type of after-sale service on their part and/or SUPE-Scubalamp's (since it is not entirely clear who is responsible here), an experience which is now shared online, could be something of a red-flag for potential customers...

A remark which will most likely get swept under the rug  by both manufacturer and local distributor forced to deal with yet another grumpy high-maintenance foreigner...
Bah, humbug!

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by bghazzal

[Davide DB]

Did you spread the word on social media?

[bghazzal]

42 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Did you spread the word on social media?

Not yet.
The issue I have is that I have two interlocutors, and as remarked the retailer/distributor seems to primarily responsible, unfortunately - they're is no real point in blaming and shaming them, as they're pretty much in a monopoly situation on the island (with only 3 other competitors), and don't have anything to win by being seen as reputable, as this isn't what drives a business selling anything from inflatable canoes to dive computers or wet-lenses....
I'll be sticking to the Jakarta UW photo equipment retailer for sure though...

But i guess a little heads up on SUPE's FB page couldn't hurt...

[scubadiggy]

To be quite honest, I have two of the SUPE strobes one of which gave me some problems. Mind you I had purchased directly from SUPE not a retailer/Distributor. It was replaced immediately and shipping was also borne by them.

A few months later had an issue once more. Replaced again at their cost. I had to pay some duty though this time.

Since then both work just fine. 

I would imagine that if one deals directly with them things would be better handled ?

Only fair that I post this here I believe?

Diggy

 

[bghazzal]

Good to know, thanks.

In Indonesia buying electronics directly abroad (from China, I presume?) would incur a minimum 40% import duty markup (and recent legislation changes have complicated things) so it's not really a viable option anymore.

SUPE has now informed me that they communicated with the distributor to try tp deliver the goods "as soon as possible", including a copy of the email.

The distributor has, on their side, said that in this case SUPE is in charge of the  waranty and the ultimate decision maker, and apologised, saying it was not the first time they had aftersale issues with the company...
🤫

Edited December 21, 2023 by bghazzal

[TimG]

Fingers crossed, Ben.

I lived in Indonesia many years ago and can sure understand the difficulties - especially, I found, of having only one supplier who pretty much had a monopoly on scuba and scuba-related gear.

[atus]

Just in case it's any consolation. Lot of years ago I had an issue with an Inon Z240, I sent it to the dealer in Spain, and they had to send it to Japan as long are they who hold the warranty, so the dealer in Spain doesn't have the avaibility to decide a warranty case. 3 month did it take.

Same with Sea&Sea, but still worst, due it was a clear case of warranty. I always had to pay for the shipping.

This is what drives me to never ever buy a japanese strobe while living in Europe.

[Davide DB]

1 hour ago, atus said:

This is what drives me to never ever buy a japanese strobe while living in Europe.

Same for me (for lights)

[bghazzal]

Yes, I'm not surprised - despite Japan's reputation for quality (well, since the 1980s, let's remember that before that Japanese products were viewed as cheap junk) and great customer service - especially domestically - when it comes to warranty issues and the like you're not in Kansas anymore...

My dealings with the main Japanese Nauticam dealer when I was living in Japan where not the most pleasant and very time-consuming same goes for Panasonic Japan in Japan (and this was all done in Japanese...)

One thing to keep in mind for Japan in particular, is that niche Japanese brands have little to fear from bad reps outside Japan - a post or rant in English will have very little impact on their domestic image, and even in Japanese the culture doesn't really favour confrontational actions like posting a experience report on a brand company on social media or similar, which is rather rare. It does happen, but then usually it's on a bigger scale, with media also involved, etc.

The language/cultural barrier is still quite strong, and generally there's not much investment in overcoming this (read, they don't really care), which is why you'll rarely see Inon reps joining the discussion somewhere... It's like "decorative English", no one seems to really care, actually.

This is the case elsewhere, but it also depends on who you are, what your relationship to the brand/retailer is. If there is a personal relation in there somewhere, it generally goes much smoother.
My Japanese boss in Thailand had a "connect" with Inon, and that was really something else, same goes for getting help from Nauticam Japan ambassadors to smoothen out the process...

This has been something a constant - service is good, efficient, but when something goes wrong, or for anything outside standard operating procedures, not so much...

By experience, when it comes after-sales customer service, this seems to be quite common in many places, especially in Asia, where the notion of "consumer protection" as found in Europe (or elsewhere) generally spreads much thinner, and after-sale service is much more limited.

That said, the difference in treatment I've had between Scubapro Europe and Scubapro USA was also quite striking, and I've also had pretty dreadful experiences in Europe in the past (France-based postal services losing parcels, anyone?)

cheers

b

Some parting wisdom by SAS Corporation:

Edited December 23, 2023 by bghazzal

[bghazzal]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:02 PM, TimG said:

Fingers crossed, Ben.

I lived in Indonesia many years ago and can sure understand the difficulties - especially, I found, of having only one supplier who pretty much had a monopoly on scuba and scuba-related gear.

Thanks Tim, yes, this is still a major issue.
And since the pandemic the government has pushed even more protectionist measutes, which really makes life trickier than it already was.
Last few months have seen a new regulation forbidding the import of articles under $100 US for instance...

For smaller goods, it's now often easier/cheaper to fly to Singapore to buy goods and return with them than trying to import...

[Davide DB]

I have two beautiful RGBlue lights bought used many years ago that I use for macro. They have exceptional build quality and I am very fond of them.

Two years ago I broke a LED and ended up cursing the day I bought them. Getting assistance from Japan was a nightmare and cost me money and months of exhausting meaningless communication.

This year I lost a charger and luckily I found a spare in stock in Europe. Thanks Ben 😉

Just think that the old Italian importer gave me some batteries he had left in stock for free. He broke off relations with them some time ago also because of their rigidity in business relations.

 

 

[bghazzal]

18 hours ago, Davide DB said:

I have two beautiful RGBlue lights bought used many years ago that I use for macro. They have exceptional build quality and I am very fond of them.

Two years ago I broke a LED and ended up cursing the day I bought them. Getting assistance from Japan was a nightmare and cost me money and months of exhausting meaningless communication.

This year I lost a charger and luckily I found a spare in stock in Europe. Thanks Ben 😉

Just think that the old Italian importer gave me some batteries he had left in stock for free. He broke off relations with them some time ago also because of their rigidity in business relations.

Ouch... Sad but not surprising, unfortunately.

I see that Inon is now a Waterpixel sponsor - fingers crossed for a little more reactivity and feedback?
An Inon rep in the industry forum maybe?

----

To sidestep and sidetrack the thread a little, I ended up drifting on RGBLue Japan's website after reading your post, and found a interesting video, possibly the most saturated UW piece I've ever seen, by Sachi Murai & RGBLue, called Super Natural Color:

https://rgblue.jp/blogs/story/写真家-むらいさち-さんによる-スーパーナチュラルカラー撮影動画を公開しまし,

Nick Hope did little piece called "Saturation" a while back, but this is next level sat really taken to 11....
A little wobbly (hand-held, I'm guessing) and also you can see colour flickering that seems to comes with wide apertures (I think it's coming from variations in ambient light in the background), but colourfully abstract and well, something else!

Anyway maybe I should share / discuss this somewhere more appropriate.... 😆

---

Returning to the subject at hands, another SUPE rep has now stepped in and is coordonating things with the distributor to make sure the replacement will be delivered quickly.

Might be seeing a light at the end of the tunnel (bad pun intended)
b

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by bghazzal

[makar0n]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:16 AM, Davide DB said:

I have two beautiful RGBlue lights bought used many years ago that I use for macro. They have exceptional build quality and I am very fond of them.

Two years ago I broke a LED and ended up cursing the day I bought them. Getting assistance from Japan was a nightmare and cost me money and months of exhausting meaningless communication.

This year I lost a charger and luckily I found a spare in stock in Europe. Thanks Ben 😉

Just think that the old Italian importer gave me some batteries he had left in stock for free. He broke off relations with them some time ago also because of their rigidity in business relations.

 

 

Another reason to stay away from lights with proprietary battery packs and/or chargers...learnt that lesson with multiple Sola lights 😉 That said, RGBlue does look nice and well engineered - I like their accessory page thing, but yeah, battery pack, nope.
 

And to break away from Japan bashing theme 😂 - my Z240s will be 10 years old in a few months, still on my first pair of o-rings. Other than the "bastard button" they never needed any service, and when I had any questions, Inon usually replied in less than a day, despite the time difference.

[bghazzal]

As an update, the replacement MS-10 finally arrived today, January 5th 2024! 😀
SUPE came through and helped coordinate things between two Indonesian distributors!