Retra Strobes Pros & Cons

[Barmaglot]

18 hours ago, DreiFish said:

So, to summarize, vastly improved battery capacity, improved weight, improved buoyancy (wasn't ever a problem for me), and slightly faster recycling times (unlikely to be a game changer). With the tradeoff being larger footprint and of course 2x price. 

 

Does this mean the V4 strobes are a totally different animal than the V2 strobes I've used and thus my subjective experience is irrelevant? Yes when it comes to battery capacity. But not when it comes to ergonomics or light quality. 

One 'soft stat' that doesn't appear on any spec sheet and is difficult to measure without very specialized equipment is TTL response range. For what it's worth, I've tried shooting my 2nd gen Retra Pros in TTL and got very consistent deep underexposure no matter what settings I tried. Oddly, I got better results triggering with a pop-up flash than with my UWT converter, but still, not stellar. According to Pavel, the 2nd gen strobes have a very limited TTL range (and the 1st gen ones are worse still), while the latter generations are improved in that regard.

[DreiFish]

 

7 hours ago, scubadiggy said:

There was a time when some fantastic images were made and probably still are being made, be it wide angle or macro with older model strobes be it Inon's or sea and sea or Ikelite's. I do agree that there are some new strobes out there that surpass the older ones in power, light distribution and colour rendition as also battery life. I have been using one brand lately that can give me up to 4 dives without a battery change, but i would rather still stick with my older Inons. I am not trying to change the tone or content of this thread, but do believe that in the correct hands, most would do the job except in conditions with pelagics where power and fast recharge would be most helpful.

 

Sorry just my two bits.  And yes had i the budget would jump at buying the retras.

 

Diggy

 

100% agree (and what I was trying to illustrate earlier in this thread). Basically every strobe produced in the last 10-15 years is quite capable of producing great results in most shooting scenarios, and you'd be hard-pressed to tell from the final image which strobe was used. 

 

3 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

One 'soft stat' that doesn't appear on any spec sheet and is difficult to measure without very specialized equipment is TTL response range. For what it's worth, I've tried shooting my 2nd gen Retra Pros in TTL and got very consistent deep underexposure no matter what settings I tried. Oddly, I got better results triggering with a pop-up flash than with my UWT converter, but still, not stellar. According to Pavel, the 2nd gen strobes have a very limited TTL range (and the 1st gen ones are worse still), while the latter generations are improved in that regard.

 

Interesting point to highlight, Barmoglot. Anyone who uses the Retra V4 strobes in TTL mode regularly and can comment on their capabilities there?

[ChrisH]

7 hours ago, DreiFish said:

100% agree (and what I was trying to illustrate earlier in this thread). Basically every strobe produced in the last 10-15 years is quite capable of producing great results in most shooting scenarios, and you'd be hard-pressed to tell from the final image which strobe was used. 

 

Yes, that is true. However, with better quality of light you will find it much easier to produce good results right away. And having the benefit of being able to further improve the image in post processing rather than having to "fix" it also really makes a difference in my opinion.

As stated before in different topics, my main goal would always be to get the strobe with the best quality of light (wide even beam, warm color temperature). At least for my shooting style. Technical data doesn't give the real picture of the performance of a strobe. So I really appreciate that you are testing the strobes!

 

Regarding the Retras: I had the first version with the round flash tube (the first Retra Pro model I think) and was really pleased with the quality of light I would get from the strobes. They were eating batteries, but back then there was no real competiton in their price range (regarding the quality of light). 

 

With the latest prices they will get more into the high end territory, like the Seacams. I found the Seacams a bit better (for me), but they are still more expensive than the Retras. 

However one thing I noticed: the Retras only offer optical triggering. You can buy an adaptor to use sync cables. But without that additional piece (with its own batteries in it!), you can only trigger them via optical cables.

Maybe it is just me, but I found the LED triggers to be the most unreliable part of recent equipment for underwater use. And I hear from a lot of people having problems with the LED triggers and also there are often reports about problems in forums. I had several times failure of my LED trigger, leading to dives with not pictures. Fortunately my old Nikon D810 had the backup built in: a pop up flash. But none of the newer camera bodies has that "backup feature" anymore.

Yet it seems that optical triggering is becoming the new standard... so it might just be that there is not enough demand for using sync chords anymore and Retra has decided to cut on this and just went for the optical route. 

But then again, with increased prices, they get in other territories, with Seacam D160 and OneUW 160 offering sync chord as well as optical triggering, giving you both options and a backup if needed.

I just use sync cables now and haven't had any issues since then.

Edited July 24 by ChrisH

[Barmaglot]

8 hours ago, ChrisH said:

I had several times failure of my LED trigger, leading to dives with not pictures. Fortunately my old Nikon D810 had the backup built in: a pop up flash. But none of the newer camera bodies has that "backup feature" anymore.

When I moved from a Sony a6300, which had a pop-up flash that I used as a backup to my UWT trigger on several occasions, to a Sony a6700 which doesn't have that anymore, I bought a cheap SeaFrogs trigger as a backup unit. It's basically a tiny flash that sits on the hot shoe, with a small xenon tube rather than LEDs, so it blasts out a lot of light, comparatively. The downsides are poor battery life (lasts just one dive, and consumes battery while on standby, which lasts no more than a couple hours), no TTL, and fairly slow (about half a second) recycle time, plus it will only fit housings with the optical bulkheads in front of the hot shoe and enough room to fit it, but it can save a trip if the main flash trigger fails for whatever reason.

[TimG]

@ChrisH

 

Chris, would you be prepared to reveal which triggers have failed on you? 
 

At the risk of tempting fate, thankfully not something I’ve ever had with a UWT trigger since I got one for a Subal housing in 2017. 

[ChrisH]

2 hours ago, TimG said:

@ChrisH

 

Chris, would you be prepared to reveal which triggers have failed on you? 
 

At the risk of tempting fate, thankfully not something I’ve ever had with a UWT trigger since I got one for a Subal housing in 2017. 

It was a UWTechnics Trigger 😬🫣 (for my Isotta Housing). 
I have to say it worked mostly without problems, but sometimes it would stop working during the dive just to start working after the dive again. Sometimes new batteries were suddenly dead in two days, so I had to constantly check. 
I hab two trips during which I changed to the pop up flash of the D810, just to be „safe“ because I got the impression I could not trust the LED trigger enough. 

But it seem to me that LED triggers in general (all brands) are the weakest point at the moment of all underwater camera systems when it comes to reliability. 

Having a back up solution should be considered, especially for once-in-a-lifetime-trips…

[Jerry Diver]

12 hours ago, ChrisH said:

Maybe it is just me, but I found the LED triggers to be the most unreliable part of recent equipment for underwater use. And I hear from a lot of people having problems with the LED triggers and also there are often reports about problems in forums

I believe this is because, over the past decade, there has been a significant shift towards using LED triggers with fibre optic cables, with very few photographers still using electric cables. As a result, the sample size of people using electric cables is now too small to accurately assess their reliability.

[ChrisH]

19 minutes ago, Jerry Diver said:

I believe this is because, over the past decade, there has been a significant shift towards using LED triggers with fibre optic cables, with very few photographers still using electric cables. As a result, the sample size of people using electric cables is now too small to accurately assess their reliability.

Yes that might be true. Also, LED triggers are still a relatively new product to underwater photography standards and maybe existing issues will be or have already been fixed in recent generations. 
 

My point regarding the strobes is: having options and a possible back up is a nice feature for some and a key feature for others. With prices going up, the Retras might have to stand against strobes that do have those features and be of interest for people that need or demand those things at that price range. 

[Oskar - Retra UWT]

We offer the E-Opto converter for those who prefer using their electrical cables. This device attaches to the end of your existing electrical cables and, with the 3rd and 4th generation Retra Flash, it can also attach directly to the strobe without additional fibre optic cables. The E-Opto converter is a cost-effective solution, and it's easy to keep spare devices on hand in case of any issues. An advantage of using the E-Opto converter instead of electrical cables is that you can remove it mid-dive for an off-camera strobe lighting scene.

 

With a few exceptions, only a small percentage of existing users prefer electrical cables over optical fiber with LED trigger boards. I believe almost all newcomers choose fibre optic cables. Additionally, there are four variants of electrical cables, so among that small group, even fewer photographers use any specific electrical connection. Fortunately, the optical fibre connection system on the Retra Flash accommodates both plug and thread type connections, providing a versatile all-in-one solution.

[Oskar - Retra UWT]

I forgot to mention earlier, but the TTL range and reliability have notably improved from the 2nd to the 4th generation Retra Flash. While a significant part of TTL performance depends on the trigger boards, we've received very positive feedback from their manufacturers of TTL trigger boards regarding the TTL usability on the 4th generation Retra Flash.

[TimG]

21 minutes ago, Oskar - Retra UWT said:

While a significant part of TTL performance depends on the trigger boards,

 

.....not to mention how you cut the fibre optic cables..... (Lesson Learned: not scissors!)

[DreiFish]

On 7/24/2024 at 5:20 PM, ChrisH said:

 

 

With the latest prices they will get more into the high end territory, like the Seacams. I found the Seacams a bit better (for me), but they are still more expensive than the Retras. 

Chris, did you ever do any measurements of the brightness of the Seacam 160Ds vs. the Retra Pros? I had the same model of the Retras, curious to know if the improvements you've noticed with Seacam are primarily related to beam spread and color temperature or also power/recycling times. The limited testing I've found on the web (including Retra's old tests of the Retra Pro vs. Seacam 150s) suggests that power and light spread are quite close, while color temperature is maybe a few hundred degrees Keldan warmer on the Seacams. Would love to hear your experience -- Retras, Seacam and Ikelite DS230 are currently on my radar.

 

On 7/24/2024 at 5:20 PM, ChrisH said:

However one thing I noticed: the Retras only offer optical triggering. You can buy an adaptor to use sync cables. But without that additional piece (with its own batteries in it!), you can only trigger them via optical cables.

Maybe it is just me, but I found the LED triggers to be the most unreliable part of recent equipment for underwater use. And I hear from a lot of people having problems with the LED triggers and also there are often reports about problems in forums. I had several times failure of my LED trigger, leading to dives with not pictures. Fortunately my old Nikon D810 had the backup built in: a pop up flash. But none of the newer camera bodies has that "backup feature" anymore.

 

 

Funny, I've had the same inconsistent experience with flash triggers. Setting aside that TTL reliability will probably never match native TTL protocols, the flash trigger introduces one additional point of failure. Not to mention an additional battery to manage. There's definitely been times when I've left the trigger off by mistake or the battery dies (or other unexplained bugs that are hard to pin down to either the trigger or the strobe). The electrical sync solution at least gives you a single manufacturer to troubleshoot with (or complain to). 

 

15 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

When I moved from a Sony a6300, which had a pop-up flash that I used as a backup to my UWT trigger on several occasions, to a Sony a6700 which doesn't have that anymore, I bought a cheap SeaFrogs trigger as a backup unit. It's basically a tiny flash that sits on the hot shoe, with a small xenon tube rather than LEDs, so it blasts out a lot of light, comparatively. The downsides are poor battery life (lasts just one dive, and consumes battery while on standby, which lasts no more than a couple hours), no TTL, and fairly slow (about half a second) recycle time, plus it will only fit housings with the optical bulkheads in front of the hot shoe and enough room to fit it, but it can save a trip if the main flash trigger fails for whatever reason.

 

I also got a SeaFrogs trigger for same purposes. Cheap! But I quickly discovered same limitations -- battery only lasts one dive, and you need to turn it on right before the dive or it will drain if left on overnight (e.g. if you like to set up your camera the night before and pull vacuum). 

 

12 hours ago, ChrisH said:

It was a UWTechnics Trigger 😬🫣 (for my Isotta Housing). 
I have to say it worked mostly without problems, but sometimes it would stop working during the dive just to start working after the dive again. Sometimes new batteries were suddenly dead in two days, so I had to constantly check. 
I hab two trips during which I changed to the pop up flash of the D810, just to be „safe“ because I got the impression I could not trust the LED trigger enough. 

But it seem to me that LED triggers in general (all brands) are the weakest point at the moment of all underwater camera systems when it comes to reliability. 

Having a back up solution should be considered, especially for once-in-a-lifetime-trips…

 

100% agree. Sadly, I've had the same issues with UWTechnics trigger recently acquired for my wife's Nauticam R6 Mark II housing. The flash will unexpectedly stop working after a few shots in the middle of a dive. Usually changing batteries brings things back to normal, but the problem starts again soon after. It's madly frustrating -- and why I bought the SeaFrogs trigger as a back-up. Ultimately, the Nauticam manual flash triggers are the most reliable solution I've found so far, and they have pretty good battery life too. But no fancy features like TTL or HSS modes, of course..

[ChrisH]

16 hours ago, DreiFish said:

Chris, did you ever do any measurements of the brightness of the Seacam 160Ds vs. the Retra Pros? I had the same model of the Retras, curious to know if the improvements you've noticed with Seacam are primarily related to beam spread and color temperature or also power/recycling times. The limited testing I've found on the web (including Retra's old tests of the Retra Pro vs. Seacam 150s) suggests that power and light spread are quite close, while color temperature is maybe a few hundred degrees Keldan warmer on the Seacams. Would love to hear your experience -- Retras, Seacam and Ikelite DS230 are currently on my radar.

Unfortunatly I never did any comparison shots between my Retras and the Seacams. 
Also, I have the older 150D Seacams not the newer 160D. 
I would guess (!) that the Seacams are a bit more powerful. For my shooting style, I had the Retras often on 1/2 power, with the Seacams I tend to use more 1/4 power setting. But I don‘t use diffusors with the Seacams, the Retras were used with the warmer wide angle diffusors. So the diffusors cut a bit of light. On the other hand I have to pull the Seacams a bit more back than the Retras, also reducing the amount of light that gets to the subject… I remember the first shots with the Seacams in my usual position with the Retras and I had a lot (!) of backscatter and flare in the corners, so I think they spread the light wider. 
 

My impression (!) would be that the Retras with the warmer diffusors come close to the Seacams without diffusors, with the Secams still have a bit more power and a wider beam. But it is not night and day, they are roughly in the same ball park. That‘s impressive regarding the price and smaller footprint of the Retras compared to the Seacams. 
 

Also I loved their various accessories and bajonet for attaching them. That is what I really miss on my Seacams, but I think the newer 160ds also got a bajonet.

 

Regarding reliability, I had never issues with the Retras, nor the Seacams. Both worked absolutly fine and gave me „peace of mind“ for all the trips I used them. The Seacams sometimes fire without me taking a shot, but its rare and they fire everytime I take a shot so that is not a big deal for me. It might be the new Z8 has a little different flash protokoll, causing them to fire. But as I said, I never missed a shot with them and that is what it is all about for me.
 

Overall I was very happy with the Retras and would still be shooting them, if I had not switched my entire equipment to Seacam and had gotten their strobes for testing. The price difference is still significant (got my Seacams luckily second hand), but I found the Seacams suiting my needs or taste regarding the light output a bit better. Also most of my regular buddies use them, so there is a better chance of getting maybe a replacement battery or o-ring if mine broke or I forgot it. And last but not least I wanted to get rid of the LED trigger and get back to „old school“ sync chord shooting. I noticed the converter that Retra sells and considered it, but it has its own battery and I had the fear of changing one possible point of failure to another one, rather than get rid of it.

Edited July 26 by ChrisH