Seeking your thoughts on Smart Phone vs Big Rig

[Proteus]

I've been shooting big iron for years but I'm starting to think small ....

 

Currently I have an A7R5 in a Nauticam housing.  I've got a variety of lenses and ports such as the WWL-1B, 140mm port, 180mm, a macro port, and related lenses.  So I've got all the big iron stuff, know how to use it, and enjoy it when I'm in the water.

 

All that considered, I HATE packing carrying, and ferrying all the "stuff".  Yes, I could just suck it up BUT now I'm wondering about going small ... meaning an iPhone 15 Pro Max in a capable housing.

 

I'm sure there are those who have made the transition before me.  I am seeking your opinions about the change and would appreciate any words you might care of share.

 

I'll be (maybe) using the rig in the 40-160 foot depth range and will be shooting wide angle, fish portraits, and macro.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Gary

[Chris Ross]

Seems like a massive leap going to a phone housing, you'll not have strobe light as you know.  Have you considered going part way, something like a Canon G7X would fit into something a lot smaller and be reasonably versatile particularly for wide angle.  Macro not so much, certainly do-able and better in terms of small subjects compared to what a phone could do.  You could get away with smaller strobes like the INON S-220, possibly even a single strobe.

 

I would kind of think of a phone housing as producing a record shot, not to say it can't take some really nice images.  Whether you're happy really depends on your expectations for your images.

[TimG]

Yeah, I’m with Chris: a massive drop in capability. They are good for those “record” pics but no lighting, probably no manual control or ability to make significant change over speed, aperture, ISO etc. And, yes, significant weight loss and packability! 
 

I wouldn’t sell the big set till you’ve tried the phone setup over several dives…..

[ChipBPhoto]

11 hours ago, Proteus said:

All that considered, I HATE packing carrying, and ferrying all the "stuff".  Yes, I could just suck it up BUT now I'm wondering about going small ... meaning an iPhone 15 Pro Max in a capable housing.

Hi @Proteus,

 

You’re asking the question we all ask.  I frequently photo my local beach area at sunrise.  I have both an iPhone and my normal camera with me.  There are some pretty spectacular mornings with bold morning colors.  I’ll post a quick image from my phone after a little LR mobile editing.  Yes, it looks great!  
 

I later download the images made with my camera during the same session and am blown away!  The detail, dynamic range, and ability to really dial in the scene delivers an image at a completely different level.  To me, the phone pics are fun, easy, and super convenient, but just don’t hold up against the high quality potential and results of a current camera.  
 

Like Tim and Chris said, then you factor in lighting and overall image control uw and a phone just does not match, especially at the depths and macro detail you’re talking about.  It really comes down to the right tool for the right output and user experience.  
 

I made some very nice images with my old Canon G11 and a pair of Inon S2000 strobes.  (Similar to G7X / S220 today)  It was small, easy to pack, and allowed me to get places my now much larger rig simply will not fit.  It did not, however, have the same exposure control your current system allows.  I learned the limits of my G11 and concentrated on those types of pics.  It was a trade off, but a good one for me at that time.

 

An APS-C like the a6700/a6600 or Canon R7 could also be a slightly smaller choice while maintaining some decent manual control and image quality.
 

Today I too grumble about the size of my now much larger rig, but I love the images I can make once I see them after the dive.  The big question is are you willing to give up your ability to dial in the settings to make a great image for a much smaller and lighter phone with much less detail and ability?

 

 

Edited Saturday at 01:52 PM by ChipBPhoto

[dhaas]

 

As I've posted before I switched in 2016 from a housed APS-C camera (Canon) and dual strobes already shrunk down to Ikelite DS51 units for wide angle and macro.

 

My choice of a 1" sensor fast 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 lens Canon G7X II I still use today. As Chip states you have to know limitations of any camera or lens and play to those strengths. I have and made huge prints from those files. 

 

Packing and traveling became easier even with a pair of small Inon S2000 strobes. Still needed batteries, arms (I preferred light FLex arms and trays but that's me), cords, etc.

 

Recently I sold all my strobes (Inon S220 and I liked them a lot) and used just a 1000 lumen flashlight or shot all ambient light on Cozumel for a week. I shared those photos in a previous post and were happy with them.

 

I've shot all the macro pics I need since 2001 when I got my first Nikon D100, then Canon Digital Rebel, then  progression of dSLR cameras.

 

I also shot my iPhones underwater for the past 4+ years but recently reverted to just my little 1" sensor compact.

 

I do use my iPhone for practically all surface shooting of family or whatever. There's no camera  easier to share your view of the world as easy as a smartphone !  AI and other editing for up-rezzing files is where I think all imaging will continue to progress and likely rapidly !

 

From my Canon G7X II I can pop the SD card into a simple SD card reader in my iPhone for a quick edit using SnapSeed or the color App SeaReal. I currently have an iPhone 13 PRO Max but soon maybe a 16 PRO / PRO Max. 

 

On shooting a compact underwater I "discovered"  technical details of a 1" sensor camera at 24mm and other focal lengths.

 

One phenomenon is smartphone small sensors have practically unlimited depth of field at wide open. Similarly I can shoot my Canon G7X II camera at 24mm /  f1.8 allowing more light to reach the sensor. This keeps the ISO low (125 is lowest on my camera) and the photos look sharper edge to edge than stopping down!

 

When I shot with strobes my "magic settings" were ISO 125, f.5.6   (equal to about f11 on a full frame sensor)  which didn't impart much  DIFFRACTION small apertures introduce on any lens.

I'd vary shutter speed for background brightness and water color. Being a small mirrorless camera the Canon G7X II  synchs at ANY shifter speed if shooting with flash up to 1/2000 !!!

 

Just another fact I found when pondering moving to a smaller rig 8 years back.....

 

Limitations:  A small camera means small battery but my housing can be opened and swap a camera battery in 45 seconds once I'm ready with a dried housing, hands, hair, etc.  I've done it hundreds of times........My Fantasea housing has DUAL o-rings (greased rear door one, plus flat White GoPro style gasket and later models have a vacuum system. I also have a "new to me"  Nauticam Canon G7X Ii housing with the vacuum in it I'll play with or possibly sell. 

 

My migration to shooting no flash I can get 200 - 300 shots per dive depending how much I screw around with menu changes, etc. Another advantage when I did shoot with flash is a camera's internal flash is compacts generally don't have a hot shoe. So flash firing will depth your battery faster. I routinely got 150 shots per small battery but I always shot S-TTL too......

 

I accepted the limitation as a benefit because I took a limitation of no flash trigger out of the camera to external flash chain......No mystery flash trigger / hot shoe / whatever brand camera flash protocol. I have seen many high end system users travel 1/2 across the planet and can't get their camera's flash set to fire 😞  

 

I've been reluctant to share any of these details as Waterpixels.net like the previous Wetpixel is the realm of high end large systems almost 99% and that's fine. Those choices are incredible image making machines but add $$$$, weight and size, etc.

 

Most here won't likely change and it took me a while to convince myself change was worth the conversion without giving up the fun of creating photos on land or underwater. 

 

I doubt my opinion will sway many as posts and ideas dismissing compacts from "not serious cameras" and unfortunately from people who never really used one for any length of time. It's similar to folks giving up using a viewfinder and framing with the LCD.

 

One close friend who's a great photographer above and below has been using his Nikon Z6 and Z8 for wide angle shooting underwater with the LCD exclusively. Granted his high end cameras have great LCDs and he still uses the eyepiece for macro with a 45 degree viewfinder.

 

Like many he simply can't change after decades of shooting and that's OK ! 

 

After over 40+ years shooting film to digital SLR to compacts and iPhones I still find the activity fun and engaging but I would encourage folks to explore options.........

 

Just one old guy's opinion turning 71 last Monday but still "in the game" 🙂

 

David Haas

 

Edited Saturday at 01:34 PM by dhaas

[dhaas]

I want add a few more thoughts relating to gear and mainly photography in general......

 

I read this article a few years ago:  http://www.peterjonlindberg.com/#/new-page-1/

 

Here's another thought provoking one: https://petapixel.com/2016/04/18/favor-p-program-mode-photography/

 

While we pride ourselves risking life and limb venturing underwater to photograph (and video) things most won't see I believe digital has created a monster we've all embraced.

 

The monster is VOLUME........

 

Early memory cards were expensive and slow processing. Today we shoot THOUSANDS of photos on a trip (hundreds to over a thousand per DIVE) then gleefully load them on our editing device of choice.

 

MAYBE some have the discipline to scroll through and pick stellar choices to edit to their chosen vision. I say MAYBE because almost all photographers I know save EVERYTHING. I too was wowed by not having the limit of 36 frames as digital came on the scene and grew by leaps and bounds.

 

Storage has become cheap and fast (almost unlimited) even if shooting large megapixel RAW files many camera's produce.

 

My point as in the first article is WHY we do this is never questioned. We do it because now technology allows us to!  

 

On a couple of my recent hosted trips (Raja Ampat Nov. 2023, Maldives Feb. 2024 and Bali May 2024) I challenged guests using dSLRs to compacts to iPhone users.

 

I suggested they make an album of 10 pictures at trip's end they'd consider printing and hanging on a wall. Maybe expand to 20 but that's it! 

 

No one thought it was crazy and all embraced the idea!  It was more a competition with yourself as the only participant.  It got some folks to really think how many missed focus / framing / exposure or totally  almost nice photos they keep. Plus where and when will they even share those photos!

 

"Hit the delete key more!" I proclaimed LOL......

 

I share these thoughts not to crush anyone's dream, aspirations, gear ownership or whatever. One category of shooters who likely do this already are CONTEST participants. Why? Because they HAVE TO to enter :)

 

These are just observations I regularly see "out in the field" that might make subsea photography more enjoyable. I call it "LESS is MORE" for lack of a better term.

 

Just more "old guy thoughts" !!!

 

[TimG]

1 hour ago, dhaas said:

(hundreds to over a thousand per DIVE)

 

A terrifying thought! No way, José. 

 

I reckon max 100 shots per dive with the aim of having maybe 5-6 true keepers

[Troporobo]

Given the original question, I’d hate to give up RAW files, especially if shooting without lights. I’d suggest a compact and one good light, either small strobe or reasonably powerful continuous light depending on use case.  I’d probably choose the Olympus TG7 for its excellent zoom and macro lens.  

[dhaas]

Glad to hear Tim is more discerning as to shots per dive!  I do still wonder how many serious hobbyists cull their treasure trove of images after a trip (????????) 

 

The numbers are likely staggering and we all delude ourselves; "I'll go back and try and see what I can do to that photo". 

 

One old article of a conversation with a National Geographic photographer was how many shots they'd shoot to have an editor select the final 5-6-13 or so shots that would illustrate an article. I think it was Joel Sartore who's work I love!  His Photo Ark Photo project documenting the last of certain species (too many left in a zoo )draw you in to the essence of all manner of creatures of our planet. I know some criticize his approach but I think the images are stunning.....

 

His conversation with an editor he asked if she thought he shot "fat".  Meaning over and over and over of a subject trying to get that one "perfect" shot (whatever that is.)  She told him no, you're in the same vein of 6,000 - 10,000 frames PER TRIP.  

 

Nat Geo would many times allow a photographer to go back to whatever destination / assignment if they felt he / she didn't "get it". That could result in a doubling of frames clicked and this was in the FILM days.......I'd hate to think about the numbers today....Granted, most (almost all?) aren't shooting for National Geographic or other publication. 

 

I hope my previous posts aren't taken as a "burn the house down" for change. That was not my intent.

 

My intent is to get people to THINK about what they'll do with their pictures, how realistic it is then weigh it against $$$$, time and hassles of travel as the OP asked.

 

Then make a best decision for YOU........

 

Keep shooting and diving!

 

David Haas

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Proteus]

Thanks to everyone who wrote with their opinions.

 

Dave, you won't remember this but you were behind my first (Ikelite) housing.  You were (I think) in sales with someone and I was an engineer with Square D in Raleigh NC.  You suggested the Ikelite housing with a Nikon (film) camera and I have gone forward from there.  Thank you!

 

I think I'll stay away from phone based housings.  I was worried about the limitations and, based on the posts, I'm sure I would be bothered.  No flash ... no aperture control ... it would be too limiting.  I enjoy the creative effects one gets from playing with these things and I don't want to just document that "I was here".

 

I'm going to give some real thought to the small machines, such as the Canon.  Maybe I can find a middle.

 

As it is now the housing, strobe arms, Retra strobes, dome, balance floats ... well you all know how it gets when traveling.  That said, I'm hooked on the 6/500 photo that just give you chills.

 

Thanks again to all, and to any who post with more thoughts.

 

Gary

[Proteus]

The folks at BlueWater suggested a Canon EOS R50 in the Nauticam NA-R50 housing.  Looks interesting.

 

Has anyone tried this?  I would be interested if someone, like me, is downscaling and has tried it.  The key, as you all have written, is how it looks to someone who has used high end gear.

 

Gary

[Chris Ross]

1 minute ago, Proteus said:

The folks at BlueWater suggested a Canon EOS R50 in the Nauticam NA-R50 housing.  Looks interesting.

 

Has anyone tried this?  I would be interested if someone, like me, is downscaling and has tried it.  The key, as you all have written, is how it looks to someone who has used high end gear.

 

Gary

It's basically a slightly larger version of what you would have with a Canon G7X, fixed port that uses the Canon 18-45 kit lens with either a WWL or a diopter for macro.  If these fit the with what you like to shoot and are aware of the limitations, then potentially a good option.  Assume you are aware it's not expandable beyond this.

 

Another mid range option might something like a OM system OM-5 perhaps in the Isotta housing - small and compact you could have that the macro port for the 50mm macro and a small dome (4.5") for the 8mm fisheye.  This would easily fit in a carry-on size backpack and be quite light.  Alternately you could use the OM-1, for longer battery life.

[Proteus]

In Nauticam's pictures it's hard to see the adjustments for shutter speed and aperture.  I use these things a lot, especially aperture.  The larger Nauticam housings make adjustment extremely easy, but I can't see the knobs / dials on the G7X or R50 housings.  I'm wondering if the adjustments are available outside of the menu / screen.  This would be a limitation and I don't think I could live with it.

 

Gary

[Chris Ross]

3 hours ago, Proteus said:

In Nauticam's pictures it's hard to see the adjustments for shutter speed and aperture.  I use these things a lot, especially aperture.  The larger Nauticam housings make adjustment extremely easy, but I can't see the knobs / dials on the G7X or R50 housings.  I'm wondering if the adjustments are available outside of the menu / screen.  This would be a limitation and I don't think I could live with it.

 

Gary

Suggest you look at the manual for the R50,  From what I can see this is a camera limitation as it only has one control dial - so in Manual, the front dial sets SS and aperture you need to press one button to allow the same front dial to change aperture.  You also have to sight and compose using the rear screen as there is no viewfinder.

 

The G7XIII has a control dial and a control for SS/aperture, the Nauticam housing can control both, though they are not quite as ergonomic the big Nauticam housings to access. 

 

You can download the housing manual from the Nauticam website, there is a link on each housings page to do this.  Likewise you can download camera manuals to check functionality.

 

The Olympus/OM system cameras have all the features you would expect to find in a DSLR or ca-nikon type mirrorless camera.  Two programmable dials to control SS/aperture and ISO/exp comp..  The housings are a huge amount smaller but the lenses and domes/ports are significantly smaller than full frame equivalents.  You can use the fisheye lens in a 4"dome port and the port for the 60mm macro is quite small.   The housings operate the same way that the big DSLR housings do at least for the OM-1 with ergonomic access to SS/aperture, the OM-5 is a bit smaller but the dials for ss/aperture are a little harder to access.

 

Here is a shot showing the OM-1 with it's housing, 60mm macro port and a 4"zen dome and the Panasonic 8mm fisheye plus 12"ruler for scale:

 

The Isotta housing would be slightly smaller.  You could probably get away with the very compact light (345 gr) INON S-220s with this rig, they are very close to the same power as my Z-240s.  You can do this as you can shoot at f8 for wide maybe f10-11 for macro.

 

What subjects do you typically shoot - macro?  a lot of reef scenics?