I'd be interested in some experiences and thoughts on mid-range strobes.

Right now I am shooting with a Sony A6400 in a Seafrogs / Salted Line housing which I will eventually upgrade, I'd rather upgrade the strobes first, but am uncertain if I would stick to a mirrorless/APC or look to upgrade to FF, as I do prefer a smaller rig overall.

Most commonly I shoot with the Sony 10-18mm rectilinear lens behind a 6" dome or a converted Tokina 10-17mm fisheye, so focused on wide angle without any great interest in macro, at least not yet.

Most of my diving is local, however I'd still like to be able to travel reasonably easy given I do take the occasional trip and liveaboard.

I have only used old secondhand Sea & Sea strobes (YS-110a and YS-27) in manual so almost anything will be an upgrade.

In general my preference is for smaller/lower weight, <=$1000 USD per strobe and reasonable power to support wide angle shots in the context of my current system.

I would prefer 18650s or other Li-ion batteries, but I do already have plenty of NiMHs from my existing strobes so it isn't a major consideration.

With that in mind the three strobes that have got my attention are the following, but also open to others;

• Sea&Sea YS-D3

• Marelux Apollo S

• Backscatter Atom

Outside of the obvious spec differences, any particular other items to share on light quality, ease of use, etc.?

Given the long timeframe so far I'm going to assume Inon 'Z335' still isn't going to be available any time soon.

Edited yesterday at 01:09 PM1 day by ubiquitous226

I shoot an A6100, in a Nauticam A6400 housing, with the Tokina 10-17 or Zeiss Touit 50mm macro.

I use a pair of YS-D3's and they're excellent. The snoot is great for macro, and they're plenty powerful for WA, especially with the dome diffusers.

You can also get them for $500 a piece from divervision in japan. Sea&Sea YS-D3 DUO Strobe – DiverVision Underwater Photo Equipment

35 minutes ago, Lewis88 said:

I shoot an A6100, in a Nauticam A6400 housing, with the Tokina 10-17 or Zeiss Touit 50mm macro.

I use a pair of YS-D3's and they're excellent. The snoot is great for macro, and they're plenty powerful for WA, especially with the dome diffusers.

You can also get them for $500 a piece from divervision in japan. Sea&Sea YS-D3 DUO Strobe – DiverVision Underwater Photo Equipment

Sea&Sea seems to have quite a bit of chatter around reliability/durability but unclear to me how much is because they've sold so many of them.

That is a very attractive price, I was pretty tempted by the specs of the Marelux S's but I don't know anyone who uses them, but that could change the equation a fair bit.

1 hour ago, ubiquitous226 said:

Sea&Sea seems to have quite a bit of chatter around reliability/durability but unclear to me how much is because they've sold so many of them.

From what I understand, there were a lot of issues with the D2 when it came out, which was mostly resolved with the D2j release.

All I can say is I've been diving S&S strobes for 20+ years, starting with YS-25a's, then a pair of YS-110a's for many years, and now with D3's for the last few years. I personally have never had any issues, following normal maintenance, o-ring inspection and lubrication, and storage practices.

There were certainly a number of reports some years ago of issues around the Sea & Sea D2 strobes. At the time some users thought the D2J resolved the problems.

I don’t think there have been an unusual number of problems reported with the D3.

Been diving a D3 for several years and no issues other than a minor flood which I was able to clean out and put a new cap on it. Continues to work as advertised. Also shooting a D1 that I've had since 2013 and it's still working well. Another D1 I had....not so much.

As a cold water Sony shooter I prefer the ergonomics of the S&S (I'm on an original set of D2) vs the Z240 that I've also used. Mainly the manual pre flash cancel is easier to activate and the color change showing mode.

I'd like to see some longer term reviews of the new strobe they just released and hopefully these D2s last until the durability on those is known.

I have shot about 15,000 images with a pair of Apollo S strobes and had no issues. I used them first in manual and later moved to TTL with the UWT internal and external flash triggers having shot about 12,000 of the 15,000 in TTL, again no issues and the most accurate TTL I have ever used. You may also want to have a look at the new Apollo Y strobes which are very competitively priced V specs.

Edited 21 hours ago21 hr by Phil Rudin

As you are in Australia you'll know prices can be high. If you are sticking with wide angle work you could consider the INON S220, a surprisingly capable little strobe with good coverage and quite even light. They are quite reliable. If you want more power there's been quite a few released recently. I've seen good reports on the new circular tube AOI strobe on the forum recently.

Like you I shoot in sometimes murky temperate waters (I'm in Sydney) and I recently upgraded to Retra strobes, I got the pure model before it was discontinued. What I found was the combination of that strobe with the reduction rings was night and day to my old Z-240s in terms of backscatter reduction. All using the same strobe positions. Not in every shot, but I had way less particles being lit up. I'd suggest getting strobe that allow you to add reduction rings.

Regarding full frame I am convinced it's not needed UW if you are not doing it professionally . Sure if you can afford it and can handle slepping the bigger rigs around go for it, but it's really not needed IMO. I shoot m43 and I remain happy with that - lenses, ports housings are all smaller and lighter and as you don't need to stop down so much (f8 is fine) lower powered strobes will do the job.

The Marelux strobes worked just fine and dandy with my Sony A6400 Nauticam both using the pop up flash as trigger and a (LED) UWT trigger. And in both configurations the TTL worked well as did manual. They are a very solid and strong shooting strobe with high build quality being all metal, also perhaps a little on the heavier side though nothing unusual for the power output.

The Backscatter strobes will not work for TTL because they have no slave TTL without buying their special Backscatter trigger and even then I am doubtful. Manual modes should work but there is no slave TTL mode. Otherwise, aside, they look like a good strobe.

The YS strobes should work in both TTL (slave mode) and manual modes.

Edited 15 hours ago15 hr by Nemrod

This thread has perfect timing. Was driving to work just thinking of starting something around Sony A7 and A6xxx cameras and strobes, and here this was :)

19 hours ago, ubiquitous226 said:

With that in mind the three strobes that have got my attention are the following, but also open to others;

• Sea&Sea YS-D3

• Marelux Apollo S

• Backscatter Atom

A friend who's been shooting for >20 years )Nikon FF and TG-7) just convinced me to get the YS-D3, he says it's a great little package, and more than good enough for WA (what I want to do). As @Lewis88 points out, they can be found at a great price. Not sure how much they would add up to (import duties + shipping) to France, but they can also be ordered locally from Photo Denfert for 650 euros a piece.

6 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

Regarding full frame I am convinced it's not needed UW if you are not doing it professionally . Sure if you can afford it and can handle slepping the bigger rigs around go for it, but it's really not needed IMO. I shoot m43 and I remain happy with that - lenses, ports housings are all smaller and lighter and as you don't need to stop down so much (f8 is fine) lower powered strobes will do the job.

I'm kind of divided on this one. I recently got a A6400, a Tokina 10-17mm + Canon adapter, but haven't made the plunge yet for the housing, as I'm strongly considering the A7C II instead. I could still use the Tokina, and a housing of similar size. The motivation is less UW photography, but mostly for topside shooting with other lenses, where I believe FF will make more of a difference.

4 hours ago, Nemrod said:

The Marelux strobes worked just fine and dandy with my Sony A6400 Nauticam both using the pop up flash as trigger and a (LED) UWT trigger. And in both configurations the TTL worked well as did manual. They are a very solid and strong shooting strobe with high build quality being all metal, also perhaps a little on the heavier side though nothing unusual for the power output.

The Backscatter strobes will not work for TTL because they have no slave TTL without buying their special Backscatter trigger and even then I am doubtful. Manual modes should work but there is no slave TTL mode. Otherwise, aside, they look like a good strobe.

The YS strobes should work in both TTL (slave mode) and manual modes.

The problem with the A7C II (vs the A6400) becomes the triggering of the strobes: I can only find TTL hot shoe triggers in the ball park of 500 euros, and this seems crazy to me... With the A6400 (which is considerably cheaper) there is a built-in flash, but the A7C II needs a trigger, and I find exaggerated the cost of something like this. Are there any alternatives ?

I would use two YS-D3 strobes with the A7C II, but I can't really wrap my mind around spending an amount similar to a strobe just for a pair hot-shoe LEDs ... I know this is niche, and things are not mass produced, but still ... seems ridiculous - but maybe I'm missing something, and we're talking about crazy complicated tech ?

9 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

As you are in Australia you'll know prices can be high. If you are sticking with wide angle work you could consider the INON S220, a surprisingly capable little strobe with good coverage and quite even light. They are quite reliable. If you want more power there's been quite a few released recently. I've seen good reports on the new circular tube AOI strobe on the forum recently.

Like you I shoot in sometimes murky temperate waters (I'm in Sydney) and I recently upgraded to Retra strobes, I got the pure model before it was discontinued. What I found was the combination of that strobe with the reduction rings was night and day to my old Z-240s in terms of backscatter reduction. All using the same strobe positions. Not in every shot, but I had way less particles being lit up. I'd suggest getting strobe that allow you to add reduction rings.

Regarding full frame I am convinced it's not needed UW if you are not doing it professionally . Sure if you can afford it and can handle slepping the bigger rigs around go for it, but it's really not needed IMO. I shoot m43 and I remain happy with that - lenses, ports housings are all smaller and lighter and as you don't need to stop down so much (f8 is fine) lower powered strobes will do the job.

I just missed the chance to get some well priced secondhand Retras locally which would have been great to try, although with the the boosters they lose some of that compactness, and not willing to pile that much cash into strobes for the new versions.

And yes very familiar with the high prices here!

The reduction rings is interesting, maybe something to experiment with on a shore dive here which can range from 10m visibility to 0.5m 😅

I'm not sure what route I'll take next, if I want to upgrade to a Nauticam system I'd want a newer body like an A6700, but then I'd need a trigger too.

Upgrading to a full frame A7RV or one of the older variants would be the other alternative, but I suspect the trade offs in size and escalating cost may not be worth it to me when I can't currently dive that much.

15 hours ago, Phil Rudin said:

I have shot about 15,000 images with a pair of Apollo S strobes and had no issues. I used them first in manual and later moved to TTL with the UWT internal and external flash triggers having shot about 12,000 of the 15,000 in TTL, again no issues and the most accurate TTL I have ever used. You may also want to have a look at the new Apollo Y strobes which are very competitively priced V specs.

I had a look at the Apollo Y's, but I was more interested in the extra power of the S's and from memory they were basically the same weight.

The Apollo Y's are a similar power to the YS-110a's I have right now (at least on paper), which a lot of the time is enough, but particularly in the clearer water trips I've taken it would have been handy to have a bit more.

The Apollo S's looked like a great option, I just don't personally know anyone that shoots Marelux in my part of the world, although there's a distributor on the east coast of Australia which is helpful.

1 hour ago, ubiquitous226 said:

I had a look at the Apollo Y's, but I was more interested in the extra power of the S's and from memory they were basically the same weight.

The Apollo Y's are a similar power to the YS-110a's I have right now (at least on paper), which a lot of the time is enough, but particularly in the clearer water trips I've taken it would have been handy to have a bit more.

The Apollo S's looked like a great option, I just don't personally know anyone that shoots Marelux in my part of the world, although there's a distributor on the east coast of Australia which is helpful.

Another consideration is that from Marelux's info, you can only do TTL with a compatible trigger. Whereas Sea & Sea will do TTL from the built in flash.

EDIT: Apparently they can do TTL from the built in flash. But no manual mode.

Edited 5 hours ago5 hr by Lewis88

1 hour ago, Lewis88 said:

Another consideration is that from Marelux's info, you can only do TTL with a compatible trigger. Whereas Sea & Sea will do TTL from the built in flash.

I do not believe this to be true. I used a set of Marelux Apollo S strobes for two weeks on both my Sony A6400 and my Canon R50. Both in Nauticam. My Sony has a UW Technics trigger and the pop up flash. I ran the Marelux strobes from both the UWT trigger and from the pop up flash in TTL. I also ran the strobes in TTL from the R50 using the pop up flash. Unless something has changed the Marelux strobes have a standard slave TTL mode. What the Marelux strobes do not have is a pre-flash cancel so I cannot run them in manual from the pop up with the Sony A6400 (I can using the UWT trigger) because the Sony cameras always have a preflash. The Canon can turn the pre-flash off for manual operation of the Marelux strobes.

Edited 5 hours ago5 hr by Nemrod

5 hours ago, tailwind_marseille said:

The problem with the A7C II (vs the A6400) becomes the triggering of the strobes: I can only find TTL hot shoe triggers in the ball park of 500 euros, and this seems crazy to me... With the A6400 (which is considerably cheaper) there is a built-in flash, but the A7C II needs a trigger, and I find exaggerated the cost of something like this. Are there any alternatives ?

I would use two YS-D3 strobes with the A7C II, but I can't really wrap my mind around spending an amount similar to a strobe just for a pair hot-shoe LEDs ... I know this is niche, and things are not mass produced, but still ... seems ridiculous - but maybe I'm missing something, and we're talking about crazy complicated tech ?

Strobe triggers are expensive, this is an expensive "hobby" and that is what they cost. And IMO, strobe trigger boards are not reliable but others have had different experiences than me with them.

I think AOI has some built in triggers in their housings.

Just me perhaps, but I would not purchase that Sony A7 for UW photography with strobes. It has a slow 1/160 shutter speed and no ability to (without a trigger board$$$$) cancel the preflash. You will not be able to shoot manual strobes without a trigger board. The 1/160 slow shutter sync is a handicap, not a huge one and I have been able to deal with it. Where I come up against this limitation with Sony A series cameras is WA into the sun, sun balls and CFWA with bright backgrounds and also high ambient light.

My Sony A6400, using the UWT trigger board can eek out 1/200 but it is kind of a PITA to set up. IMO, I will never purchase an UW camera rig that cannot do 1/250 strobe sync snd which cannot cancel preflash for manual strobes.

Not to overly confuse you but strobes such as Inon, YS, that have a pre-flash cancel can run from the Sony pop up for manual strobe operation because they have a selector mode to ignore the preflash. The Marelux Apollo strobes do not, at least the set I used did not.

Edited 5 hours ago5 hr by Nemrod

15 minutes ago, Nemrod said:

I do not believe this to be true. I used a set of Marelux Apollo S strobes for two weeks on both my Sony A6400 and my Canon R50. Both in Nauticam. My Sony has a UW Technics trigger and the pop up flash. I ran the Marelux strobes from both the UWT trigger and from the pop up flash in TTL. I also ran the strobes in TTL from the R50 using the pop up flash. Unless something has changed the Marelux strobes have a standard slave TTL mode. What the Marelux strobes do not have is a pre-flash cancel so I cannot run them in manual from the pop up with the Sony A6400 (I can using the UWT trigger) because the Sony cameras always have a preflash. The Canon can turn the pre-flash off for manual operation of the Marelux strobes.

Ah this is good to know. The way their site is written, it seems like TTL requires a trigger.

Shame about manual mode not working properly though. Would make them a no-go for me.

3 minutes ago, Lewis88 said:

Ah this is good to know. The way their site is written, it seems like TTL requires a trigger.

Shame about manual mode not working properly though. Would make them a no-go for me.

To be clear, the Marelux Apollo, unlike Inon and YS and Backscatter, does not have a preflash cancel selection. You can run them in manual (and sTTL) with a Sony camera with a trigger board. Without a trigger board and using a pop up flash the Apollo S strobes trigger on the preflash.

And Backscatter is the opposite, there is no slave TTL mode or any TTL capability without their special trigger! They require a proprietary trigger board $$$$$. But they do have preflash cancel so manual operation is a cinch! using my UWT trigger or the pop up flash. Just no slave TTL without a trigger board. Which if I may say, sucks.

Edited 5 hours ago5 hr by Nemrod

6 minutes ago, Nemrod said:

Strobe triggers are expensive, this is an expensive "hobby" and that is what they cost. And IMO, strobe trigger boards are not reliable but others have had different experiences than me with them.

I think AOI has some built in triggers in their housings.

Just me I know, but I would not purchase that Sony A7 for UW photography with strobes. It has a slow 1/160 shutter speed and no ability to(without a trigger board$$$$) to cancel preflash. You will not be able to shoot manual strobes without a trigger board. The 1/160 slow shutter sync is a handicap, not a huge one and I have been able to deal with it. Where I come up against this limitation is WA into the sun, sun balls and CFWA with bright backgrounds sand also high ambient light.

My Sony A6400, using the UWT trigger board can eek out 1/200 but it is kind of a PITA to set up.

Yes, expensive indeed! But, I'm comparing "within" the hobby world: 800-1000 euros for a flash is a little crazy in the non-UW photo world (not talking about pro usage), but then a 500 euros trigger (not even a flash...) seems bonkers. I know, I know, this is what it is, and we have to live with it.

The A7C II would not be meant just for UW. It's for use both UW and outside of it. If, most things considered, the A7C II is comparable to the A6400 underwater (with all their limitations, including 1/160th sync speed for both), I would favour the A7C II as I will also use it extensively topside (likely even more than UW). On another hand, if the A7C II becomes a PITA :) for UW, then I'm not so sure it's a good idea the compromise. One big issue is, as we discuss, the lack of built-in flash. And you're right about the AOI housing, it comes already with a tiny flash trigger. It's probably the best way to go, if I end up getting a A7C II.

3 minutes ago, tailwind_marseille said:

Yes, expensive indeed! But, I'm comparing "within" the hobby world: 800-1000 euros for a flash is a little crazy in the non-UW photo world (not talking about pro usage), but then a 500 euros trigger (not even a flash...) seems bonkers. I know, I know, this is what it is, and we have to live with it.

The A7C II would not be meant just for UW. It's for use both UW and outside of it. If, most things considered, the A7C II is comparable to the A6400 underwater (with all their limitations, including 1/160th sync speed for both), I would favour the A7C II as I will also use it extensively topside (likely even more than UW). On another hand, if the A7C II becomes a PITA :) for UW, then I'm not so sure it's a good idea the compromise. One big issue is, as we discuss, the lack of built-in flash. And you're right about the AOI housing, it comes already with a tiny flash trigger. It's probably the best way to go, if I end up getting a A7C II.

LOL, one last thing, to repeat, the Sony cameras we are discussing cannot cancel preflash for manual strobe operation. You either have to use a trigger board like the UWT or perhaps the AOI built in (?) or you have to have a strobe that can cancel preflash like the Inon, YS, Backscatter etc. for manual strobe support.

1 hour ago, Nemrod said:

LOL, one last thing, to repeat, the Sony cameras we are discussing cannot cancel preflash for manual strobe operation. You either have to use a trigger board like the UWT or perhaps the AOI built in (?) or you have to have a strobe that can cancel preflash like the Inon, YS, Backscatter etc. for manual strobe support.

Mmm, thanks for the remark. Indeed, I've been more focused on whether TTL is possible with a particular combo, but always thinking that in the end, there's always Manual. But, what you're saying is, not even that... Would the Sea&Sea YS-D3 be able to "cancel the pre-flash" ? Does this mean is won't take the pre-flash into account ? As in, some sort of "training" or setup, has to be done prior to shooting ?
I'll look better into the AOI flash that comes already with the housing... but I guess it would do just what the camera tells is to do ?

15 minutes ago, tailwind_marseille said:

Mmm, thanks for the remark. Indeed, I've been more focused on whether TTL is possible with a particular combo, but always thinking that in the end, there's always Manual. But, what you're saying is, not even that... Would the Sea&Sea YS-D3 be able to "cancel the pre-flash" ? Does this mean is won't take the pre-flash into account ? As in, some sort of "training" or setup, has to be done prior to shooting ?
I'll look better into the AOI flash that comes already with the housing... but I guess it would do just what the camera tells is to do ?

D3's will work properly in TTL or manual mode with the pop up flash. No trigger required. No training or setup required.

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by Lewis88

16 minutes ago, tailwind_marseille said:

Mmm, thanks for the remark. Indeed, I've been more focused on whether TTL is possible with a particular combo, but always thinking that in the end, there's always Manual. But, what you're saying is, not even that... Would the Sea&Sea YS-D3 be able to "cancel the pre-flash" ? Does this mean is won't take the pre-flash into account ? As in, some sort of "training" or setup, has to be done prior to shooting ?
I'll look better into the AOI flash that comes already with the housing... but I guess it would do just what the camera tells is to do ?

Yes, Inon, YS strobes can be set for preflash or no preflash for manual strobe operation. As well, both can run a standard slave mode TTL. TTL requires a preflash in order to function. Sony cameras, those we are discussing, cannot cancel preflash (like Canon, Oly, Nikon can) and thus you must have one of these things to run manual strobes:

1. A strobe like YS, Inon, Backscatter that has a preflash, no preflash selector mode for manual operation

2. A trigger board that can ignore the preflash and properly sync (UWT)

3. Something other than a darn Sony that can be set to not have a preflash

Most if not nearly all with a few exceptions run manual strobes using TTL for special or niche uses. I claim no expertize as a photographer and I find TTL occasionally useful but hardly a Godsend. In fact, it can be rather annoying as it tends to give a very generic result and I spend more time trying to adjust the TTL bias to get the result I see in my head than if I were to just run in manual (and probably still not get what I think I want).

Edited 3 hours ago3 hr by Nemrod