Sony A7R V

31 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I have provided the exact calculation. The cut is almost an hemisphere is will support up to 175 degrees

The image that you provided is more dramatic in reality the line is very close to the diameter

Very well explained, thanks, Eric and Massimo...

In addition, one must say that companies are not very accurate when they give technical specifications (e.g. the actual 175° FOV of the Canon 8-15 fisheye). Therefore the 230mm measure for the base of the 230 dome may not be very accurate (the instruction manual (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yyv7e6CsGmysBSqFuJK-H2urGpcX9Xqm/view) states that the radius is 120mm and the total diameter is 260mm (probably including socket and shades)). I also would not bet on the statement that the 140 domeport is a perfect hemisphere, maybe also this domeport deviates a little...

Even when the measure of 230mm for the basis of the 230 dome is correct, Massimo's calculation demonstrates that this dome, in practice, is a perfect fisheye domeport and, more or less, a complete hemisphere- and it was developed and is sold by Nauticam as a "fisheye" domeport...

Wolfgang

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

The A1 will be updated most likely in 2025 that is the logic of Sony product development as long as there is enough improvement to justify the existence of a new version or it may be longer

Since the A1 was released there has been minor development from Sony side. They have added a more comprehensive subject recognition. When the A1 was released in early 2021 the only company who had subject recognition was Panasonic and to a lesser extent Olympus

The A7RV has the same processor of the A1 so technically it is possible to retrofit the deep learning algorithm inside it

The other benefit of the A7RV is a better LCD again this is a minor upgrade overall 

Other features like focus bracketing can be obtained with an external app again could be programmed through firmware if Sony wanted

And finally HR shots with motion compensation again something that can be programmed

As of today the A1 is the fastest reading camera on the market as the Nikon Z9 has lower resolution. Maybe Sony will make it even quicker but I presume features like pro-capture are more interesting to the target audience than more pixels

I never said the A1 is an eternal camera that will never be updated but I totally disagree that you design a top of the range camera with limitations in mind. Sony is a large corporate and product development is no doubt already complicated by the environment the limitations will come naturally don't need to be planted if you want to be market leader

As of today the A1 still detains the highest performing autofocus on the entire full frame range including mirrorless and DSLR when tested with fast moving subjects and I can confirm the camera almost never misses and if it does it was user error

It is a different camera to the A7RV which is really a photo camera for landscape, architecture, portait and macro anything that needs that extreme resolution but not really geared for speed or video

When it comes to autofocus difficulties with macro lenses in mirrorless camera focus is performed on sensor and it is driven by readout speed and computation speed. The limitations of the A7RV come from readout speed so compared to the A1 it will always lack no matter the subject recognition or others because the starting point is worse

This is different from DSLR where readout speed only influenced when the camera is ready to take the next shot and it is a significant difference many people struggle to understand

When it comes to sony autofocus it also does not focus with the lens wide open by default the lens is actually as you have it set unless you select aperture drive and then it will focus wide open. I am still struggling to see if the aperture drive brings any benefit at all

 

As I said, the A1 will be upgraded in the next 24-30 months (i.e. so by 2025, so yes, you are agreeing with me). However what you seem to be overlooking is the upcoming Paris Olympics in 2024. Both Canon and Nikon will release new pro bodies by early 2024 (if not late 2023) to be made available for the olympics. It will be interesting to see what Sony does in this regard (A9 vs. A1 going forward)

If you are interested in investigating potential areas of improvement on the A1, you can also search through their patent submissions. Potential AI capabilities feature prominently in several of them.

As for what you believe happens in the product design process - you are welcome to whatever opinion you like, that doesn't change the reality of how electronics are designed and built.

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

I have provided the exact calculation. The cut is almost an hemisphere is will support up to 175 degrees

The image that you provided is more dramatic in reality the line is very close to the diameter

Guys,

You were really intriguing me, hence went to my stuff and made some measurement. 
Here they are

@Interceptor121, i think that my previous image was not so drmatic... :-))).
When i count 1cm of glass thickness, you see that the hemisphere is cut 3cm from a radius of 12cm, hence 25% ! This is huge, when on the contrary, the 140DP is not cut and is a true hemisphere.
Experienced based, image quality, comparing apple to apple, is better with my Sigma 15mm FE when using the 140 and not the 230.
I will go in a pool this Weekend, and take some shot, with different apertures, from f/2.8 to f/22 using both domes. Let' see. can wait to be Saturday,

26 minutes ago, oneyellowtang said:

As I said, the A1 will be upgraded in the next 24-30 months (i.e. so by 2025, so yes, you are agreeing with me). However what you seem to be overlooking is the upcoming Paris Olympics in 2024. Both Canon and Nikon will release new pro bodies by early 2024 (if not late 2023) to be made available for the olympics. It will be interesting to see what Sony does in this regard (A9 vs. A1 going forward)

If you are interested in investigating potential areas of improvement on the A1, you can also search through their patent submissions. Potential AI capabilities feature prominently in several of them.

As for what you believe happens in the product design process - you are welcome to whatever opinion you like, that doesn't change the reality of how electronics are designed and built.

I think the A1 on this thread is off topic and for that reason I would like to end it here we don't need to agree on anything those are just opinion and guesses on things we do not know

18 minutes ago, lambee01 said:

Guys,

You were really intriguing me, hence went to my stuff and made some measurement. 
Here they are

@Interceptor121, i think that my previous image was not so drmatic... :-))).
When i count 1cm of glass thickness, you see that the hemisphere is cut 3cm from a radius of 12cm, hence 25% ! This is huge, when on the contrary, the 140DP is not cut and is a true hemisphere.
Experienced based, image quality, comparing apple to apple, is better with my Sigma 15mm FE when using the 140 and not the 230.
I will go in a pool this Weekend, and take some shot, with different apertures, from f/2.8 to f/22 using both domes. Let' see. can wait to be Saturday,

The numbers are incorrect the diameter is 230,

Also the thickness of the glass is not 1cm it will be more like 6-7mm

The thickness of the dome plays a role in the determination of the virtual image but for the purpose of the discussion we should ignore it

I have the 140mm dome and it is a full hemisphere and this is why there is a version with removable shades so what you say is correct 

Now generally larger dome have a further away virtual image and this means that if a lens struggles to focus close this will help

However the canon 8-15mm can focus at 23mm from the lens so it does not have an issue of being able to focus

The larger dome will allow you to use wider apertures to obtain the same depth of field however it is unclear how many aperture stops correspond to increased radius in centimeters

Either way this is a generic point and off topic

.... and meanwhile, back on the A7RV.....

4 minutes ago, TimG said:

.... and meanwhile, back on the A7RV.....

Meanwhile, back on this topic, and further to previous contributions, i do not see any reason for me (and i insist, for me) to upgrade to A7 rV from my current A7rIV.  
Sensor is the same
AF is more than satisfying with the a7rIV, and not sure if AI improvement as claimed by Sony, would be usefull UW
A7rIV viewfinder with the x0.8 45° Nauticam viewfinder is AWESOME
I am doing still photo only and no video

So, have no plan to upgrade. However as mentioned before, for a new comer, someone who wants to switch from Nikon / canon DSLR, this would be awesome

On 2/1/2023 at 7:37 PM, oneyellowtang said:

The Sony 90mm on an A7RIV shooting blackwater is (almost) unusable considering the number of images captured by either a D850 or D500 with a 60mm. It's not that it can't get shots, it's that the effort involved in easily 10x vs. the DSLR shooting the same subjects in the same conditions.

I'm super glad to read @Alex_Mustard's review of the A7RV - we're taking it to Ambon in the spring, looking forward to trying it out. He's correct in identifying that the A7RV is priced at a point that allows serious photographers to shoot with it, while taking advantage of the features initially available in the A1. 
 

I have a question:

When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm  macro for blackwater)?

Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens?

Wolfgang

52 minutes ago, Architeuthis said:

I have a question:

When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm  macro for blackwater)?

Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens?

 

Wolfgang

I have the Sony A7RV and have just been advised to consider the Sony 30mm f3.5 macro which is an APSC lens for blackwater. This would be around 50mm. I’d be very keen to hear people’s thoughts. Thanks, Paul 

1 minute ago, Crowie said:

I have the Sony A7RV and have just been advised to consider the Sony 30mm f3.5 macro which is an APSC lens for blackwater. This would be around 50mm. I’d be very keen to hear people’s thoughts. Thanks, Paul 

That is not how it works. The 30mm f/3.5 is an APS-C lens, and on an APS-C camera (NEX, A5xxx, A6xxx), it will give you an angle of view similar to that of a 45mm lens on a full-frame camera. On your A7RV, it will simply vignette, unless you use crop mode and lose resolution that way.

For the reference, I tried the 30mm on my A6300 for blackwater and was not impressed by it; the working distance to get any kind of magnification is just too short. My go-to lens for blackwater is currently a Canon 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM on a Metabones IV adapter, but autofocus is frustrating - it tends to hunt back and forth and fails to lock; i.e. I can see the subject come into focus on the screen, but the focus drive merrily goes past that point going to the other end of focus range and the subject fades out. Lots of light (1000lm focus light with a concentrating lens on it, plus the modeling lights on my two strobes, plus sometimes my spotting torch pointing at the subject) tends to help, but is not a guarantee.

2 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

That is not how it works. The 30mm f/3.5 is an APS-C lens, and on an APS-C camera (NEX, A5xxx, A6xxx), it will give you an angle of view similar to that of a 45mm lens on a full-frame camera. On your A7RV, it will simply vignette, unless you use crop mode and lose resolution that way.

For the reference, I tried the 30mm on my A6300 for blackwater and was not impressed by it; the working distance to get any kind of magnification is just too short. My go-to lens for blackwater is currently a Canon 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM on a Metabones IV adapter, but autofocus is frustrating - it tends to hunt back and forth and fails to lock; i.e. I can see the subject come into focus on the screen, but the focus drive merrily goes past that point going to the other end of focus range and the subject fades out. Lots of light (1000lm focus light with a concentrating lens on it, plus the modeling lights on my two strobes, plus sometimes my spotting torch pointing at the subject) tends to help, but is not a guarantee.

Thanks, but yes I should have said I would be shooting in the APS-C crop mode which would avoid the vignetting. With 60MP on hand, I wouldn’t have thought resolution would be a problem.

1 hour ago, Architeuthis said:

I have a question:

When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm  macro for blackwater)?

Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens?

 

Wolfgang

I have generally ignored it existence because Sony themselves call it an Entry Level lens. I don’t know exactly what that means, but it does not fill me with confidence. Other than confidence that they have left room for a 50 or 60mm G Macro!

I have also just submitted my written review of the A7RV to Adam - which will be on Wetpixel once he has time to bash it into shape.

Alex

1 hour ago, Architeuthis said:

I have a question:

When complaining about blackwater AF performance with the Sony 90mm macro, why not consider the Sony Sony FE 50mm f/2.8 Macro on A7RV, that may be much more comparable to the Nikkor 60mm macro under problematic AF conditions, as blackwater (few people take the Nikkor 105mm  macro for blackwater)?

Is there a reason not to consider the Sony 50mm macro lens?

 

Wolfgang

The 50mm apparently also focuses slow but I have no clear confirmation

22 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I have generally ignored it existence because Sony themselves call it an Entry Level lens. I don’t know exactly what that means, but it does not fill me with confidence. Other than confidence that they have left room for a 50 or 60mm G Macro!

I have also just submitted my written review of the A7RV to Adam - which will be on Wetpixel once he has time to bash it into shape.

Alex

This sounds plausible...

I have found reviews of the Sony lenses at DxO and the results are as follows

Sony 90mm macro (44/61; DxO score/M-pixel resolution on Riv)

Sony 50 macro (38/50)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-90mm-F28-Macro-G-OSS-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-50mm-F28-Macro-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

Here, as comparison, the Nikon lenses (measured on D850):

Nikkor 105 macro (36/23)

Nikkor 60mm macro (32/21)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/AF-S-Nikkor-VR-105mm-f-2.8G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/Nikon-AF-S-Micro-NIKKOR-60mm-F28G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

Regarding this score, may the Sony 50mm macro well be considered, or are there other reservations?

Wolfgang

15 minutes ago, Architeuthis said:

This sounds plausible...

 

I have found reviews of the Sony lenses at DxO and the results are as follows

Sony 90mm macro (44/61; DxO score/M-pixel resolution on Riv)

Sony 50 macro (38/50)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-90mm-F28-Macro-G-OSS-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-50mm-F28-Macro-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

 

Here, as comparison, the Nikon lenses (measured on D850):

Nikkor 105 macro (36/23)

Nikkor 60mm macro (32/21)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/AF-S-Nikkor-VR-105mm-f-2.8G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/Nikon-AF-S-Micro-NIKKOR-60mm-F28G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

 

Regarding this score, may the Sony 50mm macro well be considered, or are there other reservations?

 

Wolfgang

 

 

If you look at perceived megapixels of the 90mm is 61....

The 50mm is sharp no issues there

1 hour ago, Architeuthis said:

This sounds plausible...

 

I have found reviews of the Sony lenses at DxO and the results are as follows

Sony 90mm macro (44/61; DxO score/M-pixel resolution on Riv)

Sony 50 macro (38/50)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-90mm-F28-Macro-G-OSS-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Sony/Sony-FE-50mm-F28-Macro-mounted-on-Sony-A7R-IV__1326

 

Here, as comparison, the Nikon lenses (measured on D850):

Nikkor 105 macro (36/23)

Nikkor 60mm macro (32/21)

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/AF-S-Nikkor-VR-105mm-f-2.8G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/Nikon-AF-S-Micro-NIKKOR-60mm-F28G-ED-mounted-on-Nikon-D850__1177

 

Regarding this score, may the Sony 50mm macro well be considered, or are there other reservations?

 

Wolfgang

 

 

Of course, Sony Marketing (screenshot from their website), but nothing about entry-level. Even the opposite.
Yes, this is correct, the 50mm Macro is not a fast runner in AF (BTW, do you know any fast runner Macro lens, Sony, Pentax, Nikon, Canon, etc....? Macro lenses are NOT constructed as other prime lenses. ) 
HOWEVER, sharpness and contrast is 1st class.

Also from Sony website.

A major use of a wider angle macro lens, like a 50mm, is blackwater, where poor AF is not really what you want.

But it is also fair to say that we all have different tastes in these things. And some will love a lens and others will not.

Alex

19 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Also from Sony website.

A major use of a wider angle macro lens, like a 50mm, is blackwater, where poor AF is not really what you want.

But it is also fair to say that we all have different tastes in these things. And some will love a lens and others will not.

Alex

 

Well said. There is a proverb in french (i am bilingual French-German) saying "Tous les gouts sont dans la nature", that you guys have in English as "it takes all sorts to make a world - tastes differ". I like it.

I am not into Blackwater photography, hence slow AF not an issue for me. And as mentioned before, i am catching myself very often with MF for macro (using Focus peaking) , essentially when using the SMC-1.

And back to the main topic, if AI algorithm for AF is one of the major improvement on the rV vs the rIV (that i own) , it is not something that will trigger an upgrade by me. And if for ever reason i need super fast AF, then i would bring my A1, with less MPix, but still 50.

The EVF also might be improved, but honestly, with my eyes of a 57 yo diver, with 3'500 dives, using the Nauticam x0.8 45° i do not see any difference UNDERWATER between the A1 and the A7rIV. I have capital letter in Underwater, because, on land, yes, there is a difference, but that do not justify for me (and my budget) to upgrade.

But do not take me wrong, the A7rV is fantastic machine based on what i have read, knowing perfectly well my A7rIV.

So I own the Sony FE 50mm F/2.8 macro and I use it sparingly. First it is very sharp for a lens priced at $100.00 less in the US than the Z 50mm F/2.8 macro. These are the only two 50mm macros that go to 1:1 for mirrorless. All of the Canon macros except the RF 100 are 1:2 lenses. The Sony and Nikon Z are both designed to expand rather than having internal focusing so I would expect them to both be slower than the like 90 and 105mm lenses. 

Like the Sony 90mm macro the 50mm is faster on the newer A7 IV, A7R V and A1 than on older versions. It is noisy when focusing and for me at 1:1 it just focuses to close. I find it most useful from about 1:2 and on, more suited to fish portraits than life-size 1:1 macro. 

Regarding blackwater, I live in an area that has excellent blackwater and have many friends that BW dive much more than I do. Almost to a person those shooting APS-C are using 60mm macros (90mm equivalent) and FF users are using macros in the 90 to 105mm range. I have never tried the 50mm for BW but I am sure the 90mm will way out perform. Most BW subjects are very small and very fast making them a challenge for auto focus. The first dive I made two years ago with the new Sony A1 was a BW dive to evaluate the AF after shooting most of my BW in the Philippines with the Sony A7R IV. The auto focus difference with the A1 was immediately noticeable the 90mm locked on and tracked like no other camera I have used.

I have attached two photos from the 50mm macro the upside of this lens is greater DOF over the 90mm at any given F/number.

18 minutes ago, Phil Rudin said:

So I own the Sony FE 50mm F/2.8 macro and I use it sparingly. First it is very sharp for a lens priced at $100.00 less in the US than the Z 50mm F/2.8 macro. These are the only two 50mm macros that go to 1:1 for mirrorless. All of the Canon macros except the RF 100 are 1:2 lenses. The Sony and Nikon Z are both designed to expand rather than having internal focusing so I would expect them to both be slower than the like 90 and 105mm lenses. 

Like the Sony 90mm macro the 50mm is faster on the newer A7 IV, A7R V and A1 than on older versions. It is noisy when focusing and for me at 1:1 it just focuses to close. I find it most useful from about 1:2 and on, more suited to fish portraits than life-size 1:1 macro. 

Regarding blackwater, I live in an area that has excellent blackwater and have many friends that BW dive much more than I do. Almost to a person those shooting APS-C are using 60mm macros (90mm equivalent) and FF users are using macros in the 90 to 105mm range. I have never tried the 50mm for BW but I am sure the 90mm will way out perform. Most BW subjects are very small and very fast making them a challenge for auto focus. The first dive I made two years ago with the new Sony A1 was a BW dive to evaluate the AF after shooting most of my BW in the Philippines with the Sony A7R IV. The auto focus difference with the A1 was immediately noticeable the 90mm locked on and tracked like no other camera I have used.

I have attached two photos from the 50mm macro the upside of this lens is greater DOF over the 90mm at any given F/number.

 

Phil, thnaks for this very valuable insight. Experience is appreciated.

My 2 cents contribution : if you look at 1:2 macro , and not 1:1 to 1:2 range, you may then want to consider the Tamron series 20mm. 24mm and 35mm
I am personally using the Tamron SP 20mm F/2.8 Di III OSD M1:2 Sony mount (at the moment around 250$US, super cheap) with a N100 100mm Dome port made for me by José at SAGA Dive (we have calculated the length of the port for best results).
It offers SUPER fast AF, 1:2 Macro at 12 cm (the 35 mm version at 16cm) and a FOV of 95°
Here an example (the crayfish) specifically chosen to illustrate low-light conditions (as we have here in the Lake of Zurich in Switzerland, very cold water, dry-suit mandatory), here with Backscatter MF-1 strobe/snoot

The second is to illustrate Macro (1:2) with wide angle perspective, way much cheaper as with the EMWL from Nauticam.