Sony A7R V

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

What does the A1 not have that an A1II would have?

I am sure Sony won’t improve anything. The camera is surely un-improve-able!

I am sure Sony won’t improve anything. The camera is surely un-improve-able!

Relax - the A1 is Sony's best camera. But it is naive to think that Sony won't replace it one day. And I feel that the A1 series is probably a better fit for me, given my workload. Although I would also expect to have both an A7R series and A1 series if I switched to Sony, personally as I would likely have more than one housing.

However, for most people the A7RV will be more attractive simply because provides the vast majority of the A1 underwater-relevant performance at a lower price point. We know lots of people are interested in this camera - just look at this thread. OK, you loose some synch speed (if you don't have HSS strobes, I tested up to 1/1000th with HSS), and gain some megapixels. The A1 has not got worse, it is just that a more attractively priced camera has inherited much of its tech relevant to underwater shooting (maybe this is also why the A1 is now about 10% cheaper than when released). 

Historically this is supported too. As high end but not top of the range cameras (like the A7RV) have always been more popular with underwater photographers, than the range toppers (like the A1) - primarily on price vs relevant performance. Just as D800 was more popular than D4, 5D more than 1D, D850 more than D5 etc etc. It goes back to F90X vs F4 and beyond.

Anyway, my main focus for using the A7RV underwater was comparing the A7RV to SLRs, which is the question most people are interested in (there remain far more keen underwater photographers with SLRs than FF Mirrorless, even if FF Mirrorless were the most popular choice on one of my recent workshops). Everyone accepts that Mirrorless are better topside cameras, everyone is interested when they become better underwater ones.

You could make the claim that the A1 was that landmark. And perhaps the Z9. But these are cameras costing more than 2x what people paid for their SLR cameras. And most people are not spending that sort of money, and at that price point are less forgiving of the differences in the EVF experience.

Anyway, I did 40 dives in very familiar conditions with the A7RV and I am very satisfied with how it compares with the SLRs I am familiar with. I did just 1 dive with the A7RIV and tried the A1 twice (in the pool and on the reef). I immediately noticed a big difference between the A7RIV and the A7RV (AF and EVF), while the A1 and the A7RV felt very similar. But fully accept this was not the focus of my test and these conclusions are preliminary. I also shot the Canon R5, which is let down by its EVF, but an R5-Mk2 with a better EVF would be a very serious competitor. As could be the Nikon Z8 if they get it right.

Alex

p.s. We re-recorded the Wetpixel Live this morning, so there are lots of thoughts on there. I'll post back on here when I have had the chance to share some of the images. Which I think will be very valuable for anyone interested in the A7RV

6 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

Relax - the A1 is Sony's best camera. But it is naive to think that Sony won't replace it one day. And I feel that the A1 series is probably a better fit for me, given my workload. Although I would also expect to have both an A7R series and A1 series if I switched to Sony, personally as I would likely have more than one housing.

However, for most people the A7RV will be more attractive simply because provides the vast majority of the A1 underwater-relevant performance at a lower price point. We know lots of people are interested in this camera - just look at this thread. OK, you loose some synch speed (if you don't have HSS strobes, I tested up to 1/1000th with HSS), and gain some megapixels. The A1 has not got worse, it is just that a more attractively priced camera has inherited much of its tech relevant to underwater shooting (maybe this is also why the A1 is now about 10% cheaper than when released). 

Historically this is supported too. As high end but not top of the range cameras (like the A7RV) have always been more popular with underwater photographers, than the range toppers (like the A1) - primarily on price vs relevant performance. Just as D800 was more popular than D4, 5D more than 1D, D850 more than D5 etc etc. It goes back to F90X vs F4 and beyond.

Anyway, my main focus for using the A7RV underwater was comparing the A7RV to SLRs, which is the question most people are interested in (there remain far more keen underwater photographers with SLRs than FF Mirrorless, even if FF Mirrorless were the most popular choice on one of my recent workshops). Everyone accepts that Mirrorless are better topside cameras, everyone is interested when they become better underwater ones.

You could make the claim that the A1 was that landmark. And perhaps the Z9. But these are cameras costing more than 2x what people paid for their SLR cameras. And most people are not spending that sort of money, and at that price point are less forgiving of the differences in the EVF experience.

Anyway, I did 40 dives in very familiar conditions with the A7RV and I am very satisfied with how it compares with the SLRs I am familiar with. I did just 1 dive with the A7RIV and tried the A1 twice (in the pool and on the reef). I immediately noticed a big difference between the A7RIV and the A7RV (AF and EVF), while the A1 and the A7RV felt very similar. But fully accept this was not the focus of my test and these conclusions are preliminary. I also shot the Canon R5, which is let down by its EVF, but an R5-Mk2 with a better EVF would be a very serious competitor. As could be the Nikon Z8 if they get it right.

Alex

I am not getting agitated. I have pondered almost one year on full frame and already had one abort. For me the speed of the camera with eshutter is key as it allows me not to use the mechanical shutter in almost any conditions

An outing to shoot deer (photos) easily runs into 800 images. A day of shooting birds can be 1500.

Underwater is relatively low for me now with 500 shots per day and maybe only 10000 shots per year but the overall total is way higher with a lot of deletions

All of this is 95% with electronic shutter and no EVF black out which is the great feature of the A1 and Z9 alike (not sure about canon I imagine same)

After 3 years your A1 has maybe 2000 shutter count and if well kept will retain his value

A slower readout camera using the mechanical shutter is cooked in 3 years and ready for the bin or for a shutter box replacement

So for me the A1 is expensive but has feature that cannot be matched that make is retain its value better

1 hour ago, Alex_Mustard said:

p.s. We re-recorded the Wetpixel Live this morning, so there are lots of thoughts on there. I'll post back on here when I have had the chance to share some of the images. Which I think will be very valuable for anyone interested in the A7RV

I look forward to seeing it, thanks @Alex_Mustard

Initial thoughts on following this thread with excitement, is that: the camera itself is very capable and comparable with the D850+, but is limited by lens choice.

This is actually good, because it means mirrorless tech is probably where it should be for underwater, and the only thing we need are better macro lenses.

Obviously not great as I don't know if Sony is planning on releasing a better macro lens, unless I've missed something.

Either way, I'm really looking forward to hearing about the Z8, as that will be my next camera for land based wildlife photography (provided it is a mini Z9 of sorts). It makes sense to one day house a Z8, if FTZ adapters work well within underwater housings with my vast array of existing glass. Otherwise we'll end up with the very expensive glass exchange conundrum.

22 minutes ago, sinetwo said:

I look forward to seeing it, thanks @Alex_Mustard

Initial thoughts on following this thread with excitement, is that: the camera itself is very capable and comparable with the D850+, but is limited by lens choice.

This is actually good, because it means mirrorless tech is probably where it should be for underwater, and the only thing we need are better macro lenses.

Obviously not great as I don't know if Sony is planning on releasing a better macro lens, unless I've missed something.

Either way, I'm really looking forward to hearing about the Z8, as that will be my next camera for land based wildlife photography (provided it is a mini Z9 of sorts). It makes sense to one day house a Z8, if FTZ adapters work well within underwater housings with my vast array of existing glass. Otherwise we'll end up with the very expensive glass exchange conundrum.

It makes it look like current e-mount macro choices are not good but that is definitely not the case

The camera market is driven by top side not underwater use cases

The Sony 90mm and the Sigma 105mm are excellent macro lenses with resolution that is unprecedented in DSLR

For reference the resolution of the Sony 90mm on a A7RIV is almost 3x the Nikkor 105mm with the D850 and the sigma is even better on the Sony E-mount

The sony 90mm being optimised for topside has a very nice focus clutch for manual focus and has OSS all those features have incredible value if you are shooting what a topside shoooter uses a macro lens for which is NOT bugs, flies anything that moves very fast

Things that move fast topside are normally shot using a telephoto lens and extension tubes or close up filters

There used to be much longer macro primes 180 200 or 300 mm for shooting bugs but those have gone a bit in the backburner

The primary issue with the 90mm (the sigma is worse) is when it changes from infinity to 1:1 this is where it can hunt but to say this is a lens that is lacking is a bit harsh considering this is one lens that will actually resolve the 61 megapixels the A7RIV/V are capable of

Maybe is more a case that concidentally some DSLR macro lenses also focussed a bit faster than you would expect than to say that Sony E-mount is sloppy

Full disclosure I have the lens and it does hunt at time and it is not fast to go through a full range scan but I would not think this makes it a show stopper for any use case. Yes would like it to be better but I am not sure this will happen in any mirrorless format

When buying new into a system, also the size and weight may become an argument (other than with UW-photographers that already have a system). The subsequent table demonstrates, that Sony FF cameras in Nauticam housings, with respect to size and weight, are more in the range of APS-C cameras as compared to their FF peers from Canon and Nikon:

.

Of course this is just the pure housing and all the other gear as (dome)port, flashes and arms has to be added. Still starting from the minimum possible seems attractive...

Wolfgang

56 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

It makes it look like current e-mount macro choices are not good but that is definitely not the case

The camera market is driven by top side not underwater use cases

The Sony 90mm and the Sigma 105mm are excellent macro lenses with resolution that is unprecedented in DSLR

For reference the resolution of the Sony 90mm on a A7RIV is almost 3x the Nikkor 105mm with the D850 and the sigma is even better on the Sony E-mount

The sony 90mm being optimised for topside has a very nice focus clutch for manual focus and has OSS all those features have incredible value if you are shooting what a topside shoooter uses a macro lens for which is NOT bugs, flies anything that moves very fast

Things that move fast topside are normally shot using a telephoto lens and extension tubes or close up filters

There used to be much longer macro primes 180 200 or 300 mm for shooting bugs but those have gone a bit in the backburner

The primary issue with the 90mm (the sigma is worse) is when it changes from infinity to 1:1 this is where it can hunt but to say this is a lens that is lacking is a bit harsh considering this is one lens that will actually resolve the 61 megapixels the A7RIV/V are capable of

Maybe is more a case that concidentally some DSLR macro lenses also focussed a bit faster than you would expect than to say that Sony E-mount is sloppy

Full disclosure I have the lens and it does hunt at time and it is not fast to go through a full range scan but I would not think this makes it a show stopper for any use case. Yes would like it to be better but I am not sure this will happen in any mirrorless format

 

@Interceptor121 You ARE so right !!!!
I may shock some, and i apologize in advance. But it reminds when as male teenagers, we were comparing ....

Stop, i am not going any further.

Sony 90mm Macro is an awesome MACRO lens, and @Interceptor121 has said everything about this lens comparing it it old Macro DSLR lenses.

Some people still do not accept that SONY has taken the Lion's share in Photo business (all photo business) and that they have pioneered the mirrorless format. Guys, feel free to stay with Nikon and Canon, who BTW have followed Sony on its innovation path.

See you underwater anytime.

On 1/30/2023 at 3:21 PM, Architeuthis said:

When buying new into a system, also the size and weight may become an argument (other than with UW-photographers that already have a system). The subsequent table demonstrates, that Sony FF cameras in Nauticam housings, with respect to size and weight, are more in the range of APS-C cameras as compared to their FF peers from Canon and Nikon:

.

Of course this is just the pure housing and all the other gear as (dome)port, flashes and arms has to be added. Still starting from the minimum possible seems attractive...

 

Wolfgang

Interesting table. I commented (based only on carrying them to the dive boat) in the review that I felt the Sony weighed pretty much the same as my Nikon D850. So after seeing your table, I put my Subal on the kitchen scales (it is a bit heavier than standard Subal as it has a Nauticam viewfinder attachment and Nauticam vacuum system), but is noticeably lighter than a Nauticam D850. But at 2.7KG it is the same as the Nauticam Sony housing.

For those interested in this camera, DPReview published their written review today https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7rv-review

And their video: 

Obviously all above water. I think UW testing is particular important for cameras with EVFs and that use sensor data (including colour) for Autofocus. But I am sure those considering this camera will still value more information. 

The Wetpixel Live review (recorded yesterday) will be online when Adam has a chance to upload it. I'll share it, if Adam doesn't.

Alex

2 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

For those interested in this camera, DPReview published their written review today https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7rv-review

And their video: 

 

What? I thought topside reviews don't count??

Joke dpreview is fairly balanced 

This is the article from Richard Butler 

The score is 92% which is very high. 

No comment. It says everything. https://www.popphoto.com/reviews/sony-a1-review/

"Sony A1 Review: The true Alpha mirrorless camera
The Sony A1 is the most powerful mirrorless camera on the market right now."

Unbiased, non commercial review.

Happy when Nikon and/or Canon will catch up, even overtake Sony, but at the moment, Sony A1 is the most... as says the reviewS (many reviews)

I am very busy with all the UPY Admin this week, but I have started to process a few underwater images from the A7RV.

These photos are all from my first dive on the Kittiwake with the camera (I made 4 on the wreck in total, this trip). I usually use my first dive on the Kittiwake each year to re-shoot scenes I have photographed before to show changes/colonisation on the wreck. Which means it is usually a productive, if not especially creative dive. Thanks to Sam (red) and Phoebe (white) for posing!

All pictures taken with Sony A7RV, Canon 8-15mm @ 15mm. Nauticam NA-A7RV. Retra Pro flashes (when used). 230mm dome. Nauticam 40˚ 0.8:1 viewfinder. Images obviously compressed low res!

Alex

1 hour ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I am very busy with all the UPY Admin this week, but I have started to process a few underwater images from the A7RV.

These photos are all from my first dive on the Kittiwake with the camera (I made 4 on the wreck in total, this trip). I usually use my first dive on the Kittiwake each year to re-shoot scenes I have photographed before to show changes/colonisation on the wreck. Which means it is usually a productive, if not especially creative dive. Thanks to Sam (red) and Phoebe (white) for posing!

All pictures taken with Sony A7RV, Canon 8-15mm @ 15mm. Nauticam NA-A7RV. Retra Pro flashes (when used). 230mm dome. Nauticam 40˚ 0.8:1 viewfinder. Images obviously compressed low res!

Alex

@Alex_Mustard Great shots (independant of the camera, but du to the photographer.) 
Is there any reason why you are using the 230 DP rather than the 140 Fisheye Port, which by the way is recommended by Nauticam for the Fisheye lenses (either the Canon 8-15, or the Sigma 15mm).
Corner sharpness, though low resolution on Wetpixel looks good (after all those last weeks debates on WACP-C)

On 1/30/2023 at 6:46 AM, Interceptor121 said:

It makes it look like current e-mount macro choices are not good but that is definitely not the case

The camera market is driven by top side not underwater use cases

The Sony 90mm and the Sigma 105mm are excellent macro lenses with resolution that is unprecedented in DSLR

For reference the resolution of the Sony 90mm on a A7RIV is almost 3x the Nikkor 105mm with the D850 and the sigma is even better on the Sony E-mount

The sony 90mm being optimised for topside has a very nice focus clutch for manual focus and has OSS all those features have incredible value if you are shooting what a topside shoooter uses a macro lens for which is NOT bugs, flies anything that moves very fast

Things that move fast topside are normally shot using a telephoto lens and extension tubes or close up filters

There used to be much longer macro primes 180 200 or 300 mm for shooting bugs but those have gone a bit in the backburner

The primary issue with the 90mm (the sigma is worse) is when it changes from infinity to 1:1 this is where it can hunt but to say this is a lens that is lacking is a bit harsh considering this is one lens that will actually resolve the 61 megapixels the A7RIV/V are capable of

Maybe is more a case that concidentally some DSLR macro lenses also focussed a bit faster than you would expect than to say that Sony E-mount is sloppy

Full disclosure I have the lens and it does hunt at time and it is not fast to go through a full range scan but I would not think this makes it a show stopper for any use case. Yes would like it to be better but I am not sure this will happen in any mirrorless format

 

The Sony 90mm on an A7RIV shooting blackwater is (almost) unusable considering the number of images captured by either a D850 or D500 with a 60mm. It's not that it can't get shots, it's that the effort involved in easily 10x vs. the DSLR shooting the same subjects in the same conditions.

I'm super glad to read @Alex_Mustard's review of the A7RV - we're taking it to Ambon in the spring, looking forward to trying it out. He's correct in identifying that the A7RV is priced at a point that allows serious photographers to shoot with it, while taking advantage of the features initially available in the A1. 

Like the older Nikon pro models relative to the D850, etc. - for many the D850 was a great camera one step below the pro bodies, with many evolved features coming from those models.

As for the A1 not needing "anything else" - yeah... if that was the case Sony would have built the camera that would have ended their investment in the mirrorless market. I guarantee they have numerous design & feature ideas for the next evolution of the body - to assume otherwise is both naive and not understanding the engineering process.

The Sony 90mm on an A7RIV shooting blackwater is (almost) unusable considering the number of images captured by either a D850 or D500 with a 60mm. It's not that it can't get shots, it's that the effort involved in easily 10x vs. the DSLR shooting the same subjects in the same conditions.

I'm super glad to read [mention=713]Alex_Mustard[/mention]'s review of the A7RV - we're taking it to Ambon in the spring, looking forward to trying it out. He's correct in identifying that the A7RV is priced at a point that allows serious photographers to shoot with it, while taking advantage of the features initially available in the A1. 

Like the older Nikon pro models relative to the D850, etc. - for many the D850 was a great camera one step below the pro bodies, with many evolved features coming from those models.

As for the A1 not needing "anything else" - yeah... if that was the case Sony would have built the camera that would have ended their investment in the mirrorless market. I guarantee they have numerous design & feature ideas for the next evolution of the body - to assume otherwise is both naive and not understanding the engineering process.

33 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I think the idea that someone designs a camera that is the top of the range sparing features for the future is silly
What happens is technology improves and certain things become possible
The A7RV has some software development and a new LCD and nothing that was developed especially for it
The A1 has technology not available to other models that so far it has not yet been possible to improve
Will sony release in 2024 a mark II just with minor updates I hope not


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As someone who both leads large software teams and has (in the past) led teams that build complex consumer electronics I can tell you definitively that your view is naive (or uninformed... you can choose).

Not only do products get built leaving potential features on the shelf, they are built with obsolescence in mind. One of the first rules of design in that for consumer electronics you never build a product that requires replacement with the exact same product, you always build for the "upgrade," next rev., etc. Just like you never buy the same car - there's always a new model year avail. by the time you are ready to replace the one you have. This is taught as basic product design around the world.

You also completely ignored the fact that technology has a cost - it's not that technology evolves from not possible to possible, it evolves from "too costly" to "affordable." 

As someone who both leads large software teams and has (in the past) led teams that build complex consumer electronics I can tell you definitively that your view is naive (or uninformed... you can choose).

 

Not only do products get built leaving potential features on the shelf, they are built with obsolescence in mind. One of the first rules of design in that for consumer electronics you never build a product that requires replacement with the exact same product, you always build for the "upgrade," next rev., etc. Just like you never buy the same car - there's always a new model year avail. by the time you are ready to replace the one you have. This is taught is basic product design around the world.

 

You also completely ignored the fact that technology has a cost - it's not that technology evolves from not possible to possible, it evolves from "too costly" to "affordable." 

I think you must be working in a really bad business from which I wouldn’t buy anything

And your statements are so condescending is scary

Of course a perfect product can be very expensive but saving features for later normally results in no market leadership or going out of business

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1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

I think you must be working in a really bad business from which I wouldn’t buy anything

And your statements are so condescending is scary

Of course a perfect product can be very expensive but saving features for later normally results in no market leadership or going out of business

 

 

 

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Gentlemen, we all are gentlemen on Wetpixel forum.
Let's go back to the discussion. We were talking about A7rV and A1.
Not mentioned yet, but this was also published a few month ago on DPG : https://www.divephotoguide.com/underwater-photography-special-features/article/review-sony-alpha-1-a1-nauticam-housing/

"A Dependable Workhorse No Matter How Tough the Task". 

Cannot agree more as I am using the A1. for now 14 months.

Here an example of the combo : Sony A1, Nauticam NA-A1, Sony 12-24 F/4 here at 20mm , Nauticam Dome Port 230 ISO800, f/16, 1/60th .

Photo is uncropped. Purpose is just and only to look at the corners as there was so much debate on this topic from all you guys.