Snoot advice

[Mark H]

Hi All

I'm a big fan of nudibranchs and macro photography and have been thinking about adding a snoot to my old rig. I've got a D500 in a Sea & Sea housing with two YS-D1 strobes. I'm not looking to spend a huge amount, ie I don't want to go out and buy a full new strobe set up like Retras.

My possible solutions so far are:

1) A 10bar snoot with laser aiming 

2)Retra LSD for D1/D2

3)Backscatter MF2 with snoot

 

With 1) I'm worried that I'll have difficulty aiming the snoot and there is little if any control of the size of the beam, 2) will rely on the focusing light of the D1 for aiming and beam size selection and I've never been that impressed with the D1 focus light, 3) is the most expensive but probably the best solution in terms of aiming and beam control visualisation but would mean carrying a third strobe on a dive, which just makes for more clutter and complication.

 

I mostly dive in the UK from relatively small boats and RHIBs. Equipment has to be relatively robust and there is no chance of someone nicely handing me my rig when in the water, it jump in with it or don't take it 😀.

 

Is there anyone out there who could pass on some experience or recommendations?

Cheers

Mark

[Sarthur1]

I would also consider Scubalamp OSD.

It's compatible with S&S D2 (I think you can contact them for adaptor if needed).

For me it was easier to use the dial on the side rather the shape disk like in the Retra or BS snoots.

[TimG]

Hey Mark

 

Im a big fan of snoots for macro photography. Ive tried various options from home made through the Retra LSD/Inon to finally Retra/LSD. 

 

Some thoughts: none of the options I’ve used are neat, compact rigs. Almost by their very nature, snooted strobes are unwieldy. I used to dive from RIBs in the UK a lot back in the day. Entry with a snooted system without it being passed down could be an art form. It certainly calls for the most robust you can put together. 
 

If you’re not happy with the aiming light of your D1 , I’d suggest ruling that out immediately. The aiming light and its accuracy when snooted is critical. 
 

Ive not used the 100bar system. But again aiming is critical as is beam control. A snoot is all about controlling the width , direction and intensity of light. If you can’t do all of those, frustration and disappointment lies down the track. 
 

Option 3. I’ve found if you’re diving with a snoot then just do snoot imagery. It takes time to find ideal subjects and time to work the image. Concentrate on that and forget other format imagery. I’ve read good things about the MF2 but no direct experience. 
 

Yep, I settled on the Retra strobe and LSD. I’m delighted with results and know I can produce good snoot images in almost any condition. If you’re really serious about wanting to do snoot imagery as a genre, the money “invested” was well worth it. Just be wary of buying cheap, buying twice. An adage which is doubly true with snooting. 

[Giancarlo M.]

Hi Mark, save yourself time and money, and go straight to the MF2 with its snoot. I currently use 2 MF2s with their snoots for macrophotography.

 

It has good power and the new MF2 uses a 21700 battery, but if you shoot a lot, I recommend replacing the battery between dives if you do 2-3 dives in a day.

I attach a few shots taken at Anilao and Bali recently

[ChipBPhoto]

44 minutes ago, TimG said:

If you’re not happy with the aiming light of your D1 , I’d suggest ruling that out immediately. The aiming light and its accuracy when snooted is critical. 

 

I absolutely agree with this, especially after experiencing it first hand.  I recently tried to use the Retra LSD w my Z-330.  Despite a most meticulous effort to correctly aim the focus beam, the design simply does not deliver a reliable result.  The misses were substantial.  And this was in extremely calm, shallow conditions where I could make multiple attempts on the same subject.

 

While I too am starting my snoot journey, I have already learned how an accurate aiming light is critical to successful results.  My next attempt is the Backscatter MF-2 with snoot, a solution about which I hear many positive reports. 
 

Edited June 25 by ChipBPhoto

[Lewis88]

1 hour ago, TimG said:

 

I’ve found if you’re diving with a snoot then just do snoot imagery. It takes time to find ideal subjects and time to work the image. Concentrate on that and forget other format imagery.

 

Couldn't agree with this more. It's a different thought process than even normal macro. IMO either handhold the snooted strobe, or lock the arm down completely. I've debated removing my second strobe and arm completely when snooting, or adding a second snoot to the other strobe.

 

I use YS-D3's and their snoot has a prism designed to redirect the focus light to the center of the snoot beam. It works great.

[Mark H]

21 hours ago, Giancarlo M. said:

Hi Mark, save yourself time and money, and go straight to the MF2 with its snoot. I currently use 2 MF2s with their snoots for macrophotography.

 

It has good power and the new MF2 uses a 21700 battery, but if you shoot a lot, I recommend replacing the battery between dives if you do 2-3 dives in a day.

I attach a few shots taken at Anilao and Bali recently

 

 

 

 

Amazing photos Giancarlo - I'd love to produce something like those 😄

[Mark H]

Thanks for all the input everyone, I really appreciate the help and advice.

 

More research suggested the Marelux SOFT lite. I'm seriously considering this option as my first choice now. The focusing light is bright and through the snoot, it has an adjustable iris to dynamically change the size of the light and it has what looks like a very good attachment system. The few reviews (3 pro reviews) I have found have all been very positive.

 

I totally get the only shoot snoot on a given dive 😀. As you have all said, I can imagine it is a mind set. At the moment I do dives where I'm only looking for macro so I can imagine that a dive just focusing on snoot photography will be the best approach. I did wonder about do I just take one strobe on such dives, then I wondered about playing with other back lighting or even low fill in light with focus on a specific subject etc etc. I think that is all well beyond me at the moment so I think I'll be just a single snoot/single strobe for a group of dives. I've a trip to the Isles of Scilly coming up and jewel anemones, sunset coral and nudis are relatively abundant, which all sound like ideal candidates 🤩.

 

As I said in my intro to Waterpixels, I'm a happy novice who pootles about on dives. I'd like to play more with my lighting, though, as I think a number of my pictures, eg attached nudi, could have been even better with snoot lighting.

[Mark H]

23 hours ago, Sarthur1 said:

I would also consider Scubalamp OSD.

It's compatible with S&S D2 (I think you can contact them for adaptor if needed).

For me it was easier to use the dial on the side rather the shape disk like in the Retra or BS snoots.

Thanks for the suggestion Sarthur1. These look very good as an alternative to the Retra LSD but I think they will suffer from the same issue - I'll have to use the D1's pathetic focusing light.

 

I think my solutions are either:

Marelux SOFT lite

Backscatter MF2

 

These seem to be about the same price point for me at the moment. I'm tending towards the SOFT lite as I then don't need to much about with changing strobes etc as much, and the D1s with the SOFT lite should be brighter than the MF2. The thing is it is a gamble though. The MF2 is a proven solutions and I'm just going on reviews that the SOFT lite is a valid approach.

 

I do prefer the idea of a truly adjustable beam width like the Scubalamp OSD and Marelux SOFT lite appear to give.

[Mark H]

23 hours ago, TimG said:

Yep, I settled on the Retra strobe and LSD. I’m delighted with results and know I can produce good snoot images in almost any condition. If you’re really serious about wanting to do snoot imagery as a genre, the money “invested” was well worth it. Just be wary of buying cheap, buying twice. An adage which is doubly true with snooting. 

Thanks Tim.

Yes, while I'm not the poorest person in the world, I do limit my spending on UW photography. It is a hobby and not a way of life for me🤪. I try and do photography on most of my diving but I also have to keep in mind that my wife or other buddies just aren't as interested and I'm not a solo diver.

 

Still it is sound advice. I think my first two options in my post aren't viable options. The D1s just don't have good enough focusing lights. I could replace my strobes but as I don't need to, I really can't justify the cost of £1500 - £2000. 

 

At the moment I'm tending towards the Marelux SOFT lite as a solution. I'm waiting to hear back from the manufacture as there is some concern with single linear tube flashes as used in my strobes. There is an alternative variant SOFT lite XW that is supposed to be better for my strobes but then it loses a feature or two of the standard model.

 

What the standard model does have is both a white and red focusing light. This sounds of little use for nudibranchs but other things like small fish shouldn't be as spooked by it as they might by a bright white focus light. Do you or anyone else think that this is really worth having or just a gimmick? Do creature get spooked by bright focusing lights? 

[TimG]

The Marelux SOFT does look interesting for sure. Couple of thoughts:

 

- I do think red light spooks fish less- certainly for night dives. That said, I’ve never had a snoot subject skiddadle when using a white focussing light. I wouldn’t pay extra to have a red snoot focussing light. 
 

- I thought the variable iris in the SOFT sounded brilliant. However I’ve heard from someone I trust that variable iris mechanisms tend to fall prey to salt conditions and jam. (Advice was to go with the slide in masks).  I don’t know if this is the case with the SOFT but it’s certainly something worth checking out. 

[Pooley]

From my own experience, the 2 most important aspects are a strong and accurate targeting beam and the ability to control with size of the light beam. 

 

I've seen lots of people trying to use home made and sub standard snoots and equally seen their frustration afterwards. 

 

this really is one of those times where if you buy cheap you buy twice. 

 

Like Tim, I have the retra strobes and LSD and think its a great bit of kit. However, I'm not sure if the focussing light on the YS-D1 will be strong enough for your aiming. If you can afford the backscatter combo then it looks promising. 

 

After that its all about how you get the strobe in position. Easiest way is have a willing buddy to hand hold the strobe. After that I think the Wolf method of setting up is good - https://www.uwphotographyguide.com/snoot-mounting-macro

 

Here's a link to some of mine a few weeks ago with the retra LSD - https://www.mikepoolewildlife.co.uk/bali24  A few were lit more traditionally but you can see the snooted ones and see how sometimes the beam needs to be narrower / wider

 

Mike 

[RVBldr]

I can attest that there's a steep learning curve but worth the effort. I had the prism-enabled cheaper snoot for the YS, but upgraded to the SOFT (non-lite version) with the YS-D3 mount ring. Its' a bit large and another bit of kit to carry around, but has a nice adjustable target beam that seems to work well. Learning how to target and align with the focus depth will take a little patience and practice. 

 

[TimG]

Jim, presumably no issues with the adjustable mechanism?

[RVBldr]

Only about 5 dives so far, but all works per design with no issues.

[Lewis88]

Thanks for the link to the Wolf method. That's a really nice setup strategy when snooting.

[TimG]

24 minutes ago, Lewis88 said:

Thanks for the link to the Wolf method. That's a really nice setup strategy when snooting.

 

It certainly looks solid - which could be good for your RIB entry issue.

 

Other than that though, I'm not sure it has any other significant advantage over the more classic, say 8" +5" +strobe/snoot on the left hand side of the housing. That's just as flexible and manoeuvrable.

 

Actually I do wodner if the Wolf system is less manoeuvrable as you have to bring your left hand over the top of the housing whereas using the "classic" method, the strobe/snoot is close to your left hand anyway.

 

But, hey potato/potahto..... whatever works best for you is the best way.

[Mark H]

20 hours ago, TimG said:

I thought the variable iris in the SOFT sounded brilliant. However I’ve heard from someone I trust that variable iris mechanisms tend to fall prey to salt conditions and jam. (Advice was to go with the slide in masks).  I don’t know if this is the case with the SOFT but it’s certainly something worth checking out. 

That is a good point. I'm hoping that good maintenance will help!?!?!

I really like the idea of the SOFT snoot, so I think I'm going to go with it.

Thanks for the input though - I'd not heard anything and it will be good to keep an eye on it from the start. 

[Mark H]

17 hours ago, Pooley said:

Here's a link to some of mine a few weeks ago with the retra LSD - https://www.mikepoolewildlife.co.uk/bali24  A few were lit more traditionally but you can see the snooted ones and see how sometimes the beam needs to be narrower / wider

Amazing photos Mike. Way beyond my level, they are lovely. Inspirational his how I'm looking at all the amazing photos you super photographers achieve.

 

I'm just a joe blogs snapper really, who maybe has ideas above his ability.

 

The Wolf setup looks robust! However, I'll be initially trying with just the standard arms as Tim mentioned. I'll try that but if I'm not getting the stability needed then I can always try the Wolf configuration, we all carry spare arms etc don't we 😀. Great suggestion.

[Mark H]

16 hours ago, RVBldr said:

I can attest that there's a steep learning curve but worth the effort. I had the prism-enabled cheaper snoot for the YS, but upgraded to the SOFT (non-lite version) with the YS-D3 mount ring. Its' a bit large and another bit of kit to carry around, but has a nice adjustable target beam that seems to work well. Learning how to target and align with the focus depth will take a little patience and practice. 

 

Thanks for the input, it is good to hear someone else is using the SOFT snoot. Sounds like I'm in for another learning curve. That is good to know as it means my expectation won't be very high to start with. I've got a week of diving in Southern Ireland and then two weeks in Scilly. I should get plenty of time to take it and spend time learning. How long did it take you to get results that regularly started to please you? 5 dives doesn't seem that many to be honest. 

[TimG]

Once you have the alignment issue cracked - and that comes from having the right combination of strobe and snoot - it then becomes an issue of composition and understanding what effect the snoot has depending on the angle and light output. So if you've got the right gear, then, yep, 5 dives should do it. 

 

One thing I did find - and maybe this is blindingly obvious - the smaller the snoot aperture you use, the higher you need to set the power on the strobe. It's not unusual for me to be using 100% or close. See this example. Tiny aiming point.  

[CaolIla]

15 hours ago, TimG said:

One thing I did find - and maybe this is blindingly obvious - the smaller the snoot aperture you use, the higher you need to set the power on the strobe. It's not unusual for me to be using 100% or close. See this example. Tiny aiming point.  

Yes I have the same "problem" with my DIY snnot with a diaphragm in it. If small aperture of the snoot --> 100% of my retra otherwise is to dark

[Mark H]

On 6/27/2024 at 2:45 PM, TimG said:

Once you have the alignment issue cracked - and that comes from having the right combination of strobe and snoot - it then becomes an issue of composition and understanding what effect the snoot has depending on the angle and light output. So if you've got the right gear, then, yep, 5 dives should do it. 

 

One thing I did find - and maybe this is blindingly obvious - the smaller the snoot aperture you use, the higher you need to set the power on the strobe. It's not unusual for me to be using 100% or close. See this example. Tiny aiming point.  

 

Thank you so much Tim, that is very helpful. I've ordered my snoot - I went with the Marelux in the end.

I'd sort of guessed that as the diameter of the beam reduced more power would be required. It was why I was less sure about the MF2 as a solution. 

 

Another question, clearly there is the need to get the snoot the correct distance from the object to get sharp edges to the light, do people play with the idea of the edge lighting being more diffuse or is it imperative to get crisp edges for the best shots?

[Dave_Hicks]

7 hours ago, Mark H said:

Thank you so much Tim, that is very helpful. I've ordered my snoot - I went with the Marelux in the end.

I'd sort of guessed that as the diameter of the beam reduced more power would be required. It was why I was less sure about the MF2 as a solution. 

 

Another question, clearly there is the need to get the snoot the correct distance from the object to get sharp edges to the light, do people play with the idea of the edge lighting being more diffuse or is it imperative to get crisp edges for the best shots?

 

I actually dislike the "spotlight" effect of a snoot and much prefer to include a fill flash at low power or to hit the subject from the side with the snoot. This lets me isolate the subject from the background and does not create that spotlight. So, I am not looking for crisp edges at all.

 

Here are a couple of shots I took yesterday with a Backscatter MF-2 snoot and HF-1 for fill light.

 

 

null

 

[Mark H]

18 hours ago, Dave_Hicks said:

I actually dislike the "spotlight" effect of a snoot and much prefer to include a fill flash at low power or to hit the subject from the side with the snoot. This lets me isolate the subject from the background and does not create that spotlight. So, I am not looking for crisp edges at all.

 

What great shots Dave. I can see what you are setting out to and achieving with your lighting combination. Love the nudi shot. 

I think initially I'll go for just the snoot as everyone says it is a big learning curve. I hope I can get it work the way everyone else does.🤞