RETRA Lithium-Ion Battery Pack

CaolIla · July 5

24 minutes ago, TimG said:

Fibre optic cables: make you own. Easy, cheap, satisfying,….

Yes that's it

Giancarlo M. · July 5

Innovation and making improvements in products is always a great thing.

I had 2 Retra Pro and used them to my satisfaction, wonderful light, nice product, nice design but I never could stand the batteries because of their lifespan and I refused to buy the Booster, it felt like a tease. That is, a nice and powerful flash, but if I have to use it for good and to its full capacity, I have to add an extension cord for the batteries and run around with 32 AA batteries and their chargers...what would be the point of that...in the end I sold them for that reason.

Retra created a "sporty Mercedes" with a 10-liter fuel tank ... you go to turn on a track, but after two laps you have to pit stop to refuel ...

IMO, they wanted to try to put a patch on the continuous release of new competing products, which now, almost all of them, mount lithium batteries with performance on durability, clearly superior. I am reminded of the phrase: "The mountain has brought forth a mouse"

That said, I understand, in part, why Retra has always been hostile to lithium batteries-I have personally witnessed the " explosion " of a lithium battery and seen the effects on a battery flooded with seawater.

But technology moves on and these are the challenges, each company makes its own choices and presents its own products and it will only be the customer who will make it clear the choices were correct.

I hope to see in the future that battery inside a Retra strobe and not outside with that horrible extension battery, also because in the last few years underwater strobes have multiplied so much, from the dominance of Sea&Sea and Inon now we have much more choice of products and this "competition" should make it so that we as customers can have higher quality products at a more attractive price.

Oskar - Retra UWT · July 5

Please note: The 2nd Gen Retra Flash mentioned in the post above had significantly lower efficiency compared to the current 4th Gen Retra Flash. While both generations offer the same maximum light output, the 4th Gen Retra Flash has greatly improved efficiency, producing 50% more shots per charge.

Most 4th Gen Retra Flash users have reported that during diving trips with four dives per day, they never run out of battery power. As part of their routine, they usually charge their strobe batteries once the camera battery is empty. They typically carry a total of 20 AA batteries for a set of two strobes. However, some users have expressed a desire for increased battery autonomy, especially in locations with limited charging options or for longer diving sessions. To address this, we developed the Power Vault option, which doubles the battery life compared to the 8xAA equivalent.

The Power Vault does increase the total length of the strobe, but the Retra Flash Pro Max with the Mounting Ball and Power Vault weighs 1.020g (dry) and has a slight negative buoyancy of approximately -50g. This means that while it is 25g heavier than the 8xAA equivalent in dry conditions, the Power Vault setup is 100g more buoyant compared to the 8xAA and Booster combination, requiring fewer floats on your setup.

Jay-11 · July 5

I'm still not sold on this addition, however, if I was doing more diving than I do currently this would probably be an easier decision to purchase. For me I wished that RETRA had been able to make it fit in the current battery compartment of the strobes rather than adding the extension. With the short pre-order period it also kind of feels like RETRA wanted people to make quick purchase decisions rather than doing some analysis like was done by people above. After people have used it more and have gotten more performance data it might then be a future option for me to look into again.

DreiFish · July 7

Looks like the issue here is that the internal diameter of Retra's battery compartment, having been designed for 4 AA batteries, is too small to fit the LI cells they opted to use. So probably the battery pack has an internal portion that is used only as an extension to connect, and the LI cells sit entirely outside the main strobe body in this new extension. Which, if using 18650 batteries, would mean that the battery pack has to protrude at minimum 70mm past the back of the strobe, assuming some 5mm for the aluminum housing and USB-C charging circuitry.

The 40wh rating suggests 3x18650 cells or 2x21700 cells if rated conservatively.

That would mean the strobes go from being 148mm long with no booster to ~220mm long with the Vault. That's longer than any other strobe out there (at least the ones I've researched and added to the spreadsheet), including the Seacam 160Ds (190mm), and the OneUW 160s (200mm). Can we really call them a medium strobe anymore with those dimensions?

Could anyone confirm if my back-of-the envelope calculations are correct? Retra AFAIK hasn't published the new length of the strobe or the details of of the voltage/AHs on the Vault.

Jerry Diver · July 7

Retra strobe with the battery pack is the same length as a Backscatter miniflash, see below screenshot from their video of the new battery pack where the guy compares it in length. With the battery pack are nowhere near the weight(!) or bulk of larger strobes from Ikelite, Seacam, etc. The protruding battery pack is a very nice handle to position the strobe and a welcome addition in length IMHO. I didn't like that hey shortened the length with the new Booster.

Giancarlo M. · July 7

Il 05/07/2024 alle 17:46, Oskar - Retra UWT ha detto:

Il Power Vault aumenta la lunghezza totale dello strobo, ma il Retra Flash Pro Max con la sfera di montaggio e il Power Vault pesa 1,020 g (asciutto) e ha una leggera galleggiabilità negativa di circa -50 g. Ciò significa che mentre è 25g più pesante dell'equivalente 8xAA in condizioni di siccità, la configurazione Power Vault è 100 g più vivace rispetto alla combinazione 8xAA e Booster, richiedendo meno galleggianti sulla configurazione.

Hi Oskar, thank you for participating, actively on the forum. For me, it is very much appreciated to be able to speak directly with companies.

I would like to ask you, if you can answer, why didn't you make the new battery outside and not inside?

Thank you in advance

Oskar - Retra UWT · July 7

You're welcome. When designing the Power Vault, we explored all available options. However, incorporating Li-Ion batteries into the 4xAA/8xAA battery compartment did not significantly enhance the strobe's performance to justify their use. Our final design offers a capacity equivalent to using 16xAA batteries, while only weighing 25 grams more than the 8xAA version.

Chris Ross · July 7

5 hours ago, DreiFish said:

Looks like the issue here is that the internal diameter of Retra's battery compartment, having been designed for 4 AA batteries, is too small to fit the LI cells they opted to use. So probably the battery pack has an internal portion that is used only as an extension to connect, and the LI cells sit entirely outside the main strobe body in this new extension. Which, if using 18650 batteries, would mean that the battery pack has to protrude at minimum 70mm past the back of the strobe, assuming some 5mm for the aluminum housing and USB-C charging circuitry.

The 40wh rating suggests 3x18650 cells or 2x21700 cells if rated conservatively.

That would mean the strobes go from being 148mm long with no booster to ~220mm long with the Vault. That's longer than any other strobe out there (at least the ones I've researched and added to the spreadsheet), including the Seacam 160Ds (190mm), and the OneUW 160s (200mm). Can we really call them a medium strobe anymore with those dimensions?

Could anyone confirm if my back-of-the envelope calculations are correct? Retra AFAIK hasn't published the new length of the strobe or the details of of the voltage/AHs on the Vault.

The specs say it's 7.2V so it must be either 2 or 4 cells.

DreiFish · July 7

6 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

Retra strobe with the battery pack is the same length as a Backscatter miniflash, see below screenshot from their video of the new battery pack where the guy compares it in length. With the battery pack are nowhere near the weight(!) or bulk of larger strobes from Ikelite, Seacam, etc. The protruding battery pack is a very nice handle to position the strobe and a welcome addition in length IMHO. I didn't like that hey shortened the length with the new Booster.

The MF-2 is 200mm in length. But I don't think they're the same length -- they look the same in that shot, but keep in mind perspective here. The foreground object is smaller than the background object. And there's the knob on the end So.. I still stand by my 220mm estimate.

As to whether the weight or bulk is similar to the larger strobes -- well, Retra + Vault is 1020 grams, Seacam 160d is 1320g. Is that a world of difference in your book?

If it's 7.2v, then I guess it's probably 2 21700 cells in there.

Jerry Diver · July 7

Yeah, I do mind a lot that two strobes will be 600g heavier than the Retra's with power packs, have less than half the autonomy of the Retra's, and also require a proprietary (heavy) charger to bring along.

However, an extension that's only on a small part of the strobe body and not the whole circumference is no bother at all—quite the opposite, actually.

DreiFish · July 7

29 minutes ago, Jerry Diver said:

Yeah, I do mind a lot that two strobes will be 600g heavier than the Retra's with power packs, have less than half the autonomy of the Retra's, and also require a proprietary (heavy) charger to bring along.

However, an extension that's only on a small part of the strobe body and not the whole circumference is no bother at all—quite the opposite, actually.

I think you're being a little bit of a fanboy here and creating imaginary strawman strobes.

Which large strobe is 600g heavier? With the exception of the OneUW 160s (which is heavy because it's rated to withstand 200m of pressure), every other large strobe (Seacam 160d, Ikelite DS230, Marelux Apollo 3s, Backscatter HF-1, Supe D-Pro) is only 100-300 grams heavier than the Retras with this battery pack, and they're all more compact if you look at the diameter and length.

Most of the strobes I've listed use simple lithium cells and don't require any proprietary charger. But I suppose you're ignoring that USB-C charging means you also need.. a USB-C charger of some sort? Those (and the cables) also weigh something and aren't much smaller than for example the charger that comes with the DS230 or Supe D-Pro. Not to mention the USB-C charger and cables are extra $$$ on what is already a $2100 stobe once you include the Vault.

The biggest complaint though is that the battery pack doesn't do much to improve the recycle time of these strobes, which is left still trailing the pack..

Jerry Diver · July 7

In the previous post, you mentioned that the Seacam 160D is 300g heavier than the Retra with a battery pack. I replied that two of those strobes would be 600g heavier, which is a significant amount of weight and added bulk. For those 600g I could take a MF2+snoot and have a great package for wide angle and snooting.

The Seacam's have a constant diameter, while the Retra's can be disassembled into substantially smaller units by removing the very slim but long battery pack. Additionally, the Seacam costs $2500, and their battery pack, which is no more powerful than 8xAA batteries, costs $385.

USB-C chargers/cables are lightweight and versatile, they charge most laptops and phones, making them perfect for travel. They barely add any bulk, which is crucial when you need to travel light because of airline restrictions. Also if one of your proprietary chargers starts acting up it's much more difficult to replace, especially on a trip.

Davide DB · July 7

Guys I have the impression that this thread has reached a dead end. Everyone has had a chance to express their preferences on flashes and battery packs and in particular on the novelty introduced by Retra. We also had a direct feedback from Oskar. It is not often that we have the privilege of a manufacturer participating in the forum....

Long story short: now we all have an informed opinion and try to remember the old adage: agree to disagree 😉

DreiFish · July 8

22 hours ago, Jerry Diver said:

In the previous post, you mentioned that the Seacam 160D is 300g heavier than the Retra with a battery pack. I replied that two of those strobes would be 600g heavier, which is a significant amount of weight and added bulk. For those 600g I could take a MF2+snoot and have a great package for wide angle and snooting.

The Seacam's have a constant diameter, while the Retra's can be disassembled into substantially smaller units by removing the very slim but long battery pack. Additionally, the Seacam costs $2500, and their battery pack, which is no more powerful than 8xAA batteries, costs $385.

USB-C chargers/cables are lightweight and versatile, they charge most laptops and phones, making them perfect for travel. They barely add any bulk, which is crucial when you need to travel light because of airline restrictions. Also if one of your proprietary chargers starts acting up it's much more difficult to replace, especially on a trip.

Apologies, I should've read your original post a bit more closely. Yes, you are still saving 600 grams with a pair of Retras compared to the other large strobes, which is not insubstantial. And I do think it's a fair point that you separate the Vault from the strobe for travel, making them a bit easier to pack than, say, the Seacams.

But really, with the Vault (and other accessories), and with the price hike on the latest version of the strobe, the Retras are reaching stratified price territory now. $2000 (or $2100) per strobe. Gone are the days where they were selling near $1000/piece, a modest price premium over the Inon D330s and Sea & Sea YS-D2s of the world. And $500 for a battery pack replacement is also stratified territory. Only the Seacams are more expensive at $2500, and their replacement battery packs are cheaper at $385.

Other large strobes like the Supe D-Pro ($749 - $118 battery pack) Backscatter HF-1 ($900 - $50 batteries) Marelux Apollo 3 ($1199 - $25 batteries), Ikelite D230 ($1299 - $250 battery pack) and even the OneUW 160Ds ($1650 - $180 battery pack) start to look like much better value!

RomiK · July 9

There is a lot of emphasis put on price point which in grand scheme of things .... won't make much difference... The real importance I think is the pack reliability, usability, how fast it charges and so on... Personally I think they should have made two versions for latest and previous gens so they would use that empty space inside the strobes and stick out less. They mill them out of aluminium one by one anyway. This design with this center of gravity will make the strobes quite "ass heavy", in some situations it's gonna tilt the nose up. But at the end it's the company calling the shots and only market will prove them right or wrong, eh?

CaolIla · July 9

5 hours ago, RomiK said:

But at the end it's the company calling the shots and only market will prove them right or wrong, eh?

Not sure that the market is happy of the actual situation.

I didn't find a lot of people happy of the strategie of Retra... the price IS really a negativ point. Retra is not alone on the market, they are some other products and this is why many users will try other brands

Oskar - Retra UWT · July 10

On 7/9/2024 at 8:03 AM, RomiK said:

Personally I think they should have made two versions for latest and previous gens so they would use that empty space inside the strobes and stick out less. They mill them out of aluminium one by one anyway. This design with this center of gravity will make the strobes quite "ass heavy", in some situations it's gonna tilt the nose up.

Creating a unique version for 2nd and 3rd generation Retra Flashes would have had only a minor impact on the total length, so we opted for a product compatible with all Retra Flash strobes (except the first generation, which does not support over-the-air firmware updates).

The Power Vault increases buoyancy by 100g compared to the 8xAA Booster configuration, maintaining an equal balance of the strobe underwater.

RomiK · July 10

2 hours ago, Oskar - Retra UWT said:

Creating a unique version for 2nd and 3rd generation Retra Flashes would have had only a minor impact on the total length, so we opted for a product compatible with all Retra Flash strobes (except the first generation, which does not support over-the-air firmware updates).

The Power Vault increases buoyancy by 100g compared to the 8xAA Booster configuration, maintaining an equal balance of the strobe underwater.

I meant this (picture)... -100g total is good but the distribution is of an essence too. The picture have strobe with empty main body compartment and full booster to mimic Powervault weight distribution. The powervault sticks out even more and physics arm power law applies correspondingly. Not a big deal and definitely not as big as some video lights but still something to keep in mind when arms fully stretched out.

For my gen of strobes (depending on cells dimensions flexibility which you might not have) I would be happy to have slightly less capacity in exchange for compact dimensions. But maybe there is no flexibility on lion cells size so that might not be possible IDK 🤷‍♂️... it's always like what we want vs. what we can get 😑 I am certain retra gen5 will have this inside 🤙

Oskar - Retra UWT · July 10

The underwater weight of the 3rd Gen Retra Flash Pro X in the above picture, including 8xAA eneloop pro, the mounting ball and Supercharger X, is -250g. In comparison, the Retra Flash Pro Max, including the mounting ball and configured with the Power Vault, weighs only -50g underwater. The difference can be further reduced by mounting a small neoprene cover, like the one in the above picture, which provides approximately +40g of buoyancy at a depth of 1 meter. With a practically neutrally buoyant strobe in the water, minimal force is needed to manoeuvre it, even with a slight offset in the center of gravity. I hope this clears up some doubts regarding underwater strobe balance with the Power Vault battery pack.

Barmaglot · July 16

On 7/8/2024 at 7:05 PM, DreiFish said:

But really, with the Vault (and other accessories), and with the price hike on the latest version of the strobe, the Retras are reaching stratified price territory now. $2000 (or $2100) per strobe. Gone are the days where they were selling near $1000/piece, a modest price premium over the Inon D330s and Sea & Sea YS-D2s of the world. And $500 for a battery pack replacement is also stratified territory. Only the Seacams are more expensive at $2500, and their replacement battery packs are cheaper at $385.

Other large strobes like the Supe D-Pro ($749 - $118 battery pack) Backscatter HF-1 ($900 - $50 batteries) Marelux Apollo 3 ($1199 - $25 batteries), Ikelite D230 ($1299 - $250 battery pack) and even the OneUW 160Ds ($1650 - $180 battery pack) start to look like much better value!

Completely agree. Between Sea & Sea sorting out their reliability problems and Backscatter/SUPE/Marelux releasing credible alternatives, it's getting quite difficult to recommend Retras at their current price point. I like my Retras a great deal, but I got them at the 2018 preorder prices - no way I could justify their current price tag.

Davide DB · July 17

Gentlemen,

I moved all the last few posts since were no longer talking about the battery pack but about the grand schemes of life. You can continue the discussion there and leave this thread only for posts related to the battery pack.

I trust in everyone's ability to respect the rules of peaceful digital community life

https://waterpixels.net/forums/topic/1482-retra-strobes-pros-cons

insomniac · November 5

Well, it looks like they realized how stupid / expensive this idea was and abandoned the project. I pre-ordered 2 batteries as I hate having to travel with + charge 16 batteries twice a day during long dive trips. I was thinking this "upgrade" would be a better option than buying new strobes after I invested so much into these already. But I guess I will cut my losses and most likely sell my Retra Pro Max's in favor for something else... They held onto my money for 4 months, and processed the cancellation / refund today and sent this email:

Quote

Hello,

We’re reaching out to update you on your order for the Power Vault battery pack. Over the past few months, our team explored every option to bring this product to you while upholding the high standards of quality and safety that Retra is known for. However, the lower-than-expected demand made it challenging to start production as planned, despite our efforts to find feasible solutions.

After careful consideration, we’ve made the difficult decision not to move forward with production due to this limited demand, which prevents us from producing the Power Vault in a way that’s both safe for our production team and high-performing for your Retra Flash. We understand this may be disappointing news, and we’re truly sorry for any inconvenience it may cause.

We will be issuing a full refund for your Power Vault order. Please note that it may take up to 20 days for the refund to appear in your account. Additionally, to express our gratitude, we’d like to offer you a $40 voucher for your next purchase with Retra (valid for 1 year).

We hope this gesture reflects our appreciation and commitment to making things right.

Please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any questions or need assistance with your refund.

Thank you for your support and understanding.

Warm regards,

Matija S.

Edited November 5 by insomniac

Oskar - Retra UWT · November 6

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your feedback and for sharing your experiences. I want to personally address the recent decision regarding the Power Vault and clarify the steps we took and the factors that led us here.

We were genuinely excited about the Power Vault project and believed it could provide real value to our community. Unfortunately, with demand falling below our expectations, it became unfeasible to produce the Power Vault in a way that aligned with our goals for safety, quality and performance.

This decision was difficult, and I understand the frustration of those who pre-ordered and were eagerly awaiting the product. We’re prioritizing prompt refunds and hope to continue supporting your future needs with Retra.

As always, your feedback matters greatly to us and guides our decisions. We’re continuously working on ways to improve, and your trust in Retra means everything to our team. Please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any further questions or concerns—I’m here to listen.

CaolIla · November 6

For me the main problem is the price... , again your price are to high I'm not sure i'll buy Retra again if one of my actuel retra failed... i'm happy with... but now it's to expensive (for me).

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