RETRA Lithium-Ion Battery Pack

[fruehaufsteher2]

As an innovation leader like Retra, you naturally always take a higher risk with new product launches than with companies that copy existing technology and adapt it to their own requirements. Underwater photography is always a niche market. I can therefore well understand the decision. However, I hope that a battery compartment with 18650 or comparable, standardized high-capacity batteries will be considered for the next generation.

I have the new Pro Max and have absolutely no complaints about battery life. The flash battery typically lasts as long as the battery in my camera, which actually only needs to be recharged after 2-3 days.

[TimG]

8 hours ago, fruehaufsteher2 said:

As an innovation leader like Retra, you naturally always take a higher risk with new product launches than with companies that copy existing technology and adapt it to their own requirements. Underwater photography is always a niche market. I can therefore well understand the decision. However, I hope that a battery compartment with 18650 or comparable, standardized high-capacity batteries will be considered for the next generation.

I have the new Pro Max and have absolutely no complaints about battery life. The flash battery typically lasts as long as the battery in my camera, which actually only needs to be recharged after 2-3 days.

Totally agree. I’m delighted with my ProMaxs and the battery life with the booster. 

[CaolIla]

39 minutes ago, TimG said:

Totally agree. I’m delighted with my ProMaxs and the battery life with the booster. 

Hummm not 100% the same opinion I need to change the 16 batterie all 3 dives (one day) some times I change after 2 dives... to be sure have enough power for the next dive... 
It's ok but it take a lot of time

[Dave_Hicks]

54 minutes ago, TimG said:

Totally agree. I’m delighted with my ProMaxs and the battery life with the booster. 

 

It is crystal clear that the days of the AA battery powered strobe are over. Done. There are better power options available with LiOn batteries today and they open up better feature sets and utility. While you may be satisfied with your current products, it's highly unlikely that future iterations will keep using AA power cells.

[RomiK]

15 hours ago, CaolIla said:

Hummm not 100% the same opinion I need to change the 16 batterie all 3 dives (one day) some times I change after 2 dives... to be sure have enough power for the next dive... 
It's ok but it take a lot of time

I travel with 26 batteries (2 spares) and 2x 4bay USB-C chargers and have 8 batteries charging at any given time. If one of the strobes drops below 50% I quickly change the 8 pack or I do it every 2nd dive no matter what. no issue on a 4 dives per day chasing the big guys on full power like last week in Galapagos. 50-80 full strobe power shots per dive. P.S. I am using 2450mA IKEA NiMH (made in Japan variety)

Edited November 7 by RomiK

[RomiK]

On 11/6/2024 at 5:50 AM, Oskar - Retra UWT said:

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you for your feedback and for sharing your experiences. I want to personally address the recent decision regarding the Power Vault and clarify the steps we took and the factors that led us here.

 

We were genuinely excited about the Power Vault project and believed it could provide real value to our community. Unfortunately, with demand falling below our expectations, it became unfeasible to produce the Power Vault in a way that aligned with our goals for safety, quality and performance.

 

This decision was difficult, and I understand the frustration of those who pre-ordered and were eagerly awaiting the product. We’re prioritizing prompt refunds and hope to continue supporting your future needs with Retra.

 

As always, your feedback matters greatly to us and guides our decisions. We’re continuously working on ways to improve, and your trust in Retra means everything to our team. Please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any further questions or concerns—I’m here to listen.

 

@Oskar - Retra UWT - the idea was a bold move anyway given the size of the market and these retrofits rarely work for all to be a must have. If I could suggest I'd like the next gen retra to be in a form of neutrally buoyant can with glove friendly controls and battery pack supporting 3-4 amps fast charge over usb-C. With the life expectancy of strobes I am sure by the time you go to market there will be enough demand for upgrade and new acquisitions. Cheers.

[CaolIla]

4 hours ago, RomiK said:

I travel with 26 batteries (2 spares) and 2x 4bay USB-C chargers and have 8 batteries charging at any given time. If one of the strobes drops below 50% I quickly change the 8 pack or I do it every 2nd dive no matter what. no issue on a 4 dives per day chasing the big guys on full power like last week in Galapagos. 50-80 full strobe power shots per dive. P.S. I am using 2450mA IKEA NiMH (made in Japan variety)

I have 16 x 2 AA plus 2 8 AA charger  No problem with that... only that it take time...

[TimG]

2 hours ago, CaolIla said:

I have 16 x 2 AA plus 2 8 AA charger  No problem with that... only that it take time...

Yeah, I’m pretty much the same but use just 2x 4 AA chargers. Just did a Red Sea liveaboard, 3 dives a day - no problem. I can’t be taking enough pictures! 

[TimG]

On 11/6/2024 at 8:56 PM, Dave_Hicks said:

 

It is crystal clear that the days of the AA battery powered strobe are over. Done. There are better power options available with LiOn batteries today and they open up better feature sets and utility. While you may be satisfied with your current products, it's highly unlikely that future iterations will keep using AA power cells.

Dave, why are you so certain AA powered strobes are over?  They are such a simple solution. Easy to obtain, inexpensive, unlikely to explode, no issues of moving them by air (or mail!), and as far as I can tell for most uses, deliver sufficient power. Am I missing something? Other than my dive computer and camera battery, I use AAs for everything and standardising makes charging and cable management so much easier. 

[Dave_Hicks]

20 minutes ago, TimG said:

Dave, why are you so certain AA powered strobes are over?  They are such a simple solution. Easy to obtain, inexpensive, unlikely to explode, no issues of moving them by air (or mail!), and as far as I can tell for most uses, deliver sufficient power. Am I missing something? Other than my dive computer and camera battery, I use AAs for everything and standardising makes charging and cable management so much easier. 

 

Yes, I think you are missing something. A strobe with AA batteries can't include a "video quality" light. Retra needed to add an external battery extender to get competitive & acceptable flash counts. With lithium-ion batteries, you can have it all without compromising the design.

 

AA batteries may be simple but have downsides as well. Low power density and high failure rates. Alkaline cells will leak eventually nearly 100% of the time and ruin the device. Higher quality AA batteries exist with less risk of leaking, just like higher quality lithium-ion cells exist with less risk of burning up. And the higher quality AA batteries are actually not that widely available outside of specially stores.

[Klaus]

Don’t let the better be the enemy of the good enough, right? I have low needs for the moment and the AA are just perfect, make life easy. Yet I think Dave is right, Lithium Ion is the future. They are probably not necessary for some (many?) applications, but essential for others. The normal lamps (I.e. flashlights) are all 18650 or higher already. So it’ll be standardized and simple as well once everything is 18650.
But flying could remain an issue. Who knows…

[Chris Ross]

2 hours ago, TimG said:

Dave, why are you so certain AA powered strobes are over?  They are such a simple solution. Easy to obtain, inexpensive, unlikely to explode, no issues of moving them by air (or mail!), and as far as I can tell for most uses, deliver sufficient power. Am I missing something? Other than my dive computer and camera battery, I use AAs for everything and standardising makes charging and cable management so much easier. 

I have to agree, I can do 3-4 dives on my INON Z-240s - admittedly its shooting m43, so mostly f8 so not as demanding, but they do the job.  I don't need a strobe to have a video quality light so that's not important for me.  Dealing with 16 batteries is obviously time consuming but totally manageable.  There's certainly applications where you want more power, but not for everyone.

I agree there's different qualities in batteries, especially worrying is the cheap Li-ion, people will buy them from the cheapest online source they can find.  all it will take is one bad incident with a cheap Li-ion to make air travel more difficult.

[Dave_Hicks]

6 minutes ago, Chris Ross said:

I have to agree, I can do 3-4 dives on my INON Z-240s - admittedly its shooting m43, so mostly f8 so not as demanding, but they do the job.  I don't need a strobe to have a video quality light so that's not important for me.  Dealing with 16 batteries is obviously time consuming but totally manageable.  There's certainly applications where you want more power, but not for everyone.

I agree there's different qualities in batteries, especially worrying is the cheap Li-ion, people will buy them from the cheapest online source they can find.  all it will take is one bad incident with a cheap Li-ion to make air travel more difficult.

 

This is already a problem for airlines. I doubt if a few strobe batteries in bags are going move the needle vs. the millions of phones flying.

 

Phones and other lithium-ion powered devices ignite on planes from time to time. Recently you may have noticed a new announcement on flights, especially for planes with first class. "If you drop your phone behind the seat, don't try to retrieve it. Call the flight attendants." These airline seats are motorized, and they can pinch, fold, and mangle the lost phone, causing a fire.

 

The planes all have battery containment gear now:

 

[ChipBPhoto]

I see both sides of the question.  Currently, I am still using AAs for my Z-330s.  I do like the idea of additional power standardized, quality Li-ons can produce, especially for more demanding hybrid options like the HF-1.  I do have concerns about the number of cheap Li-ons that are not as stable.  Yes, there are lower quality versions of everything, but there is a real risk with cheap Li-ons, especially on liveaboards and other dive boats.  I’m sure solutions will be made, but it is still a bit of the Wild West for users that don’t invest in the quality, safer batteries.  As with all technology, power demands continue to increase and Li-on is the direction at this point. 

 

Just my 2 cents…. (or now $14 factoring for inflation)

 

[Chris Ross]

2 hours ago, Dave_Hicks said:

 

This is already a problem for airlines. I doubt if a few strobe batteries in bags are going move the needle vs. the millions of phones flying.

 

Phones and other lithium-ion powered devices ignite on planes from time to time. Recently you may have noticed a new announcement on flights, especially for planes with first class. "If you drop your phone behind the seat, don't try to retrieve it. Call the flight attendants." These airline seats are motorized, and they can pinch, fold, and mangle the lost phone, causing a fire.

 

The planes all have battery containment gear now:

 

It's not the strobe batteries I'm concerned about almost certainly it will be some other battery, just due to the numbers around.  Yes they have equipment to deal with it, but if we get a bad incident that is not well handled there always the possibility of a knee jerk reaction which makes flying with Li-ion more difficult.

[Dave_Hicks]

1 hour ago, Chris Ross said:

It's not the strobe batteries I'm concerned about almost certainly it will be some other battery, just due to the numbers around.  Yes they have equipment to deal with it, but if we get a bad incident that is not well handled there always the possibility of a knee jerk reaction which makes flying with Li-ion more difficult.

Look up Boeing 787 lithium ion battery fires. They grounded the planes for quite some time.

 

Or Samsung Phone fires.

 

Etc...

[Chris Ross]

5 hours ago, Dave_Hicks said:

Look up Boeing 787 lithium ion battery fires. They grounded the planes for quite some time.

 

Or Samsung Phone fires.

 

Etc...

Yes I know, but the 787 needs it batteries to fly and banning phones or laptops would create a huge uproar. Hopefully it never happens but never under estimate what might come about from a knee jerk reaction.

[bvanant]

We took a portable defibrillator to our friend's resort in Bali. We tried to take it on as a carry on and the crew said it couldn't fly. We pointed out that it was identical to the defibrillator in the cabin above row 6. Finally they agreed (after much discussion).

 

Bill

[FrancoisC]

to come back to AA vs Lithium discussion:

I have 2 ProX

initialy without extender.

Very frustrating because most of the time with 2 subsequent shots, the second one was not lighted.

I added battery extenders ($$$), and issue was no longer there, but

-good, but not exceptional recycle time.

-with  the cost of higher overall length (not critical)

-more manipulation with a total of 8 O-ring. With some time to time difficulties to insert extenders.

-many batteries. 2 sets of 16 AA (because in some situations you don't have time of possibility to recharge, especially with 3 dives per day. 

 

With lithium batteries, I expect 

-better capacity : it sems ok. Enough for 3 dives ?

-bette recycle time : not sure how it compares to Pro X...

 

[Floris Bennema]

On 11/7/2024 at 11:51 PM, Chris Ross said:

I have to agree, I can do 3-4 dives on my INON Z-240s - admittedly its shooting m43, so mostly f8 so not as demanding, but they do the job.  I don't need a strobe to have a video quality light so that's not important for me.  Dealing with 16 batteries is obviously time consuming but totally manageable.  There's certainly applications where you want more power, but not for everyone.

I agree there's different qualities in batteries, especially worrying is the cheap Li-ion, people will buy them from the cheapest online source they can find.  all it will take is one bad incident with a cheap Li-ion to make air travel more difficult.

Not to mention the danger on the wooden liveaboards..

[Davide DB]

Guys, reality check: 

There are videographers aboard with their lights full of huge Li-ion battery packs 😉

 

[Dave_Hicks]

44 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Guys, reality check: 

There are videographers aboard with their lights full of huge Li-ion battery packs 😉

 

+1 to that, and every dive light and focus light, phone, and laptop in existence. Using NiMH batteries is not a moral high-ground. 

[Klaus]

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Guys, reality check: 

There are videographers aboard with their lights full of huge Li-ion battery packs 😉

 

… and some of those aboard might even smoke 😮

Ok, that’s a completely different story but it nonetheless exists. lithium batteries are not unsafe per se - we might never have seen as many NiMH powered devices in circulation as we do for Li-Ion now. But they are certainly more sensitive to how they are treated, and that‘s where the parallel with smoking may be appropriate.

As long as the companies offer a choice - all the better.
 

[Dave_Hicks]

25 minutes ago, Klaus said:

… and some of those aboard might even smoke 😮

Ok, that’s a completely different story but it nonetheless exists. lithium batteries are not unsafe per se - we might never have seen as many NiMH powered devices in circulation as we do for Li-Ion now. But they are certainly more sensitive to how they are treated, and that‘s where the parallel with smoking may be appropriate.

As long as the companies offer a choice - all the better.
 

 

I would be willing to bet that within a year or two we won't see any UW Strobes still in production that still use NiMH batteries. 

[Floris Bennema]

My latest liveaboard forbade even mobiles to be loaded in the rooms. I never dived into the issue but they were very strict on it.

Edited December 9 by Floris Bennema