Advice Dome or WWL for whales

[HCIdiver]

19 hours ago, Brandon Cole said:

I too will caution against reliance on the WWL for orcas in Norway due the "bubbles" issue, needing to burp the lens. And I speak from experience. I have been to Norway for orcas many times, including last year when I shot the Sony A7RV and the WWL1. I will not do that again. Next time I will go either "dedicated water contract lens" mounted straight onto the housing, or back to old fashioned dome, or a combination of both. HCLdiver- as you know, sometimes you slip into the water and have time to organize yourself before you need to shoot. In this case, you have time to remove the WWL and reattach to make sure no air is trapped between flat port and back of WWL. But, sometimes you do not have time to do that, as you need to start swimming and or shooting immediately upon getting into the water. And, even when you have time, because of the cold water, cold air, cold fingers, thick gloves etc. the delicate operation of removing and reattaching WWL in the water is risky. I am clumsy, and dropping it (obviously, attach it to housing with a lanyard) is very real...
I have used many combinations in Norway. With Canon, 16-35 f2.8 Canon behind a 230mm dome at f2.8 and f4. Same lens behind smaller 170mm dome. Also the 16-35 f4 lens. Canon 8-15 f4 fisheye behind 140 and 170 domes. Canon 15mm 2.8 fisheye behind 140 and 170 and 230 domes. Nikon D850 with fisheye, rect zoom, etc.. Nikon D500. And Sony A7RV with 28-60 and WWL1.  And I have never been fortunate to have ASA 800 light at 70 degrees north in NOvember. Most of my shooting is ASA 3200 to 6400, trying to keep 1/100 shutter speed or so. (ASA 1600 is lucky, in my experience.) So lots of wide open and near wide open.

I did not like the noise generated by the Sony A7RV at ASA 6400 and 10,000 with the 28-60/WWL when on a baitball with orcas feeding late in the day while it was snowing... Super dark conditions, yes, definitely not ideal. But that is a summary of this exercise. Visibility, light, time, action, distance, shooting angle etc are very, very rarely ideal, so you have to take what you get. The noise was more objectionable (at least to me) with the Sony setup than with either Canon 5D4 and Nikon D850. I personally feel that 60mp is just too demanding. 

Remember, the moment you zoom in from 28mm the lens stops down. So, you are rarely shooting at f4 unless you leave the lens at 28mm and shoot 130 degrees.

In summary, I would take both, and see what you think about the 28-60 and WWL and A7RV at wide open and high ISO... butd also have that 16-35 2.8 (and dome) with you... Being able to-- when necessary-- shoot at f2.8 or 4, rather than 4/4.5 or 5.6, keeps your ASA a stop or two lower for cleaner files- or gives you faster shutter shutter speed. Both can be (IMO) very important. Sometimes you have whales stretching to the corners/edges of the frame, and sometimes you are super close to the baitball and whales... but usually, most of the time you are shooting from at least a few meters away, sometimes farther.
I wish you best of luck this year. Sadly, I will not be there this year. But hoping to return to Skjervoy in 2026.
Sincerely,

Brandon

Thanks Brandon. Just boarded with Nick and read yer advice! I packed both but i think ill start with the Dome. If we get lucky i will try the wwl at least once for experience. Not a lot of ☀️ on the forecast yet. 

Hoping we cross paths some day....

[waterpixel]

14 hours ago, Floris Bennema said:

I don't understand these complaints on WWL-1 bubbles. I use the lens for over 5 years and only experienced bubbles before the bayonet mount came out. Rolling from a boat I keep my camera in front of me so the water flows in rather smoothly and never take the lens off. Or jump, camera up in the air. No issue for me. Do  those who have isuues use the bayonet mount?

.

In hundreds of dives i have never had any bubbles For whales, i recommend WWL-

 

Norway has dark waters and you'll want to open up the aperture as much as you can

Edited November 1 by waterpixel

[Floris Bennema]

2 hours ago, RomiK said:

@Floris Bennema - and here is a good example of what @ChipBPhoto mentioned. This happens in my experience with WWL1 rarely so far but it could and does happen.

 

RoniK, I don't understand that you ascribe dark spots in the previous post to bubbles and the light spots in this one. Note that in this photo there's also a dark one. Anyhow, so few, easy to remove in Lightroom.

Edited November 1 by Floris Bennema

[RomiK]

1 hour ago, Floris Bennema said:

RoniK, I don't understand that you ascribe dark spots in the previous post to bubbles and the light spots in this one. Note that in this photo there's also a dark one. Anyhow, so few, easy to remove in Lightroom.

This example shows scenario where camera focuses on the bubbles hence they are sharp and also exposure reflects that. In the other examples camera was focusing on subjects in the water hence the bubbles were unfocused if this explanation makes sense 

[Floris Bennema]

9 hours ago, RomiK said:

This example shows scenario where camera focuses on the bubbles hence they are sharp and also exposure reflects that. In the other examples camera was focusing on subjects in the water hence the bubbles were unfocused if this explanation makes sense 

It's clear, I get your point. I can imagine you get frustrated!

 

I never had this focussing issue, probably because my lens (Panasonic 14-42 on Olympus 5 III) can't focus closer than 10 cm from it's front. Strange enough, I neither have ýour' dark dots on my photos. Light ones I have, but not at the same place in successive photos. So I think that's something in the water or reflection from the sun.

[Glasshouse]

Grab yourself a 54(outer diameter)x4mm o-ring from a hardware store. I just checked my invoice and it cost 50c. It fits nice and snug between the flat port and the WWL-1 and creates a perfect seal. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen these from Zen but then they charge underwater camera prices.

You can attach with bayonet mount in a bucket to add water but it also does a pretty good job dry. If you really wanted you could go the extra mile and use distilled water! 

The size I quoted was for the original WWL-1 but sure the same would apply to the rest of the WWL family.

[Brandon Cole]

8 hours ago, Glasshouse said:

Grab yourself a 54(outer diameter)x4mm o-ring from a hardware store. I just checked my invoice and it cost 50c. It fits nice and snug between the flat port and the WWL-1 and creates a perfect seal. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen these from Zen but then they charge underwater camera prices.

You can attach with bayonet mount in a bucket to add water but it also does a pretty good job dry. If you really wanted you could go the extra mile and use distilled water! 

The size I quoted was for the original WWL-1 but sure the same would apply to the rest of the WWL family.

 

Be careful with this strategy if you are working in very cold conditions, such as Norway in winter. I tried this workaround last year in Norway, assembling WWL-1 onto flat port in my hotel in the morning, in a tub, filling the gap with freshwater. Well, a few hours later on the boat when I went to jump into the ocean to photograph orcas, I noticed that the water trapped between flat port and back of WWL had frozen solid. Yes. Ocean water temp was above freezing, but the air temp was below. Housing had cooled down sufficiently on the boat deck, and water trapped within the space froze into an ice cube. And it wasn't perfectly clear- it had veins, etc. So, I could not photograph the whales, as the lens was focused on the ice layer.

 

The strategy Glasshouse mentioned works in warmer places if you do it correctly.

 

 

[ChipBPhoto]

2 minutes ago, Brandon Cole said:

 

Be careful with this strategy if you are working in very cold conditions, such as Norway in winter. I tried this workaround last year in Norway, assembling WWL-1 onto flat port in my hotel in the morning, in a tub, filling the gap with freshwater. Well, a few hours later on the boat when I went to jump into the ocean to photograph orcas, I noticed that the water trapped between flat port and back of WWL had frozen solid. Yes. Ocean water temp was above freezing, but the air temp was below. Housing had cooled down sufficiently on the boat deck, and water trapped within the space froze into an ice cube. And it wasn't perfectly clear- it had veins, etc. So, I could not photograph the whales, as the lens was focused on the ice layer.

 

The strategy Glasshouse mentioned works in warmer places if you do it correctly.

 

 

Wow - that is an incredible point!  As a warm water diver, I never would have thought of such an issue.  My biggest challenge is keep humidity from fogging up the lens.  Just a little different. 😂

 

Thanks @Brandon Cole for the insight! 
 

[Brandon Cole]

2 minutes ago, ChipBPhoto said:

Wow - that is an incredible point!  As a warm water diver, I never would have thought of such an issue.  My biggest challenge is keep humidity from fogging up the lens.  Just a little different. 😂

 

Thanks @Brandon Cole for the insight! 
 

You're welcome. And humidity/condensation is also a problem in a place like Norway. Keeping the housing in the warm boat cabin and then rushing out onto the cold deck and jumping in the cold ocean can sometimes create additional problems...

[Davide DB]

Next step: salted 🧂 water in the tub 😄

 

[Brandon Cole]

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

Next step: salted 🧂 water in the tub 😄

 

Yes, that would help lower the water's freezing temp a few degrees. But I never risked this again on this trip during the cold snap. Went back to shooting a dedicated dome attached directly to housing.

[RomiK]

1 hour ago, Brandon Cole said:

Yes, that would help lower the water's freezing temp a few degrees. But I never risked this again on this trip during the cold snap. Went back to shooting a dedicated dome attached directly to housing.

I wouldn't have it on these (semi)snorkel trips any other way. One thing are optical parameters and what not and another handling the dry weight and underwater mass... I think the old say 'it's not the camera it's the shot stupid' applies triple on these encounters.

[fruehaufsteher2]

WACP-C,WACP-C!

(„Jehova, Jehova“)

[HCIdiver]

Paying back all the great advice to this site, here is my day two update in Norway:

Its dark. Waters warm but its snowing. Morning has the best light.

Starting my days with the 180dome and using 800iso fixed. Im using speed priority set at 125. (Missed some orca on slow shutter). Camera steps the aperture ranging from 2.8 to 7.

Its all been fast action and no bait balls so only adjustments are between dives. 

The ace pro insta is working out amazingly mounted on top, and im not a video shooter. 

Edwar is showing me all Brandons tricks for keeping the camera locked up to prevent sweating. Its painful bot being able to crack open the housing. The vacuum detector is red since i had to charge the battery.... Any quick ways to reset? Remember i cant just dry it out inside.... 

[Glasshouse]

18 hours ago, Brandon Cole said:

 

Be careful with this strategy if you are working in very cold conditions, such as Norway in winter. I tried this workaround last year in Norway, assembling WWL-1 onto flat port in my hotel in the morning, in a tub, filling the gap with freshwater. Well, a few hours later on the boat when I went to jump into the ocean to photograph orcas, I noticed that the water trapped between flat port and back of WWL had frozen solid. Yes. Ocean water temp was above freezing, but the air temp was below. Housing had cooled down sufficiently on the boat deck, and water trapped within the space froze into an ice cube. And it wasn't perfectly clear- it had veins, etc. So, I could not photograph the whales, as the lens was focused on the ice layer.

 

The strategy Glasshouse mentioned works in warmer places if you do it correctly.

 

 

Wow such a great point, diving in Australia that’s not really an issue so never even crossed my mind. I thought diving Melbourne in winter was cold… 

 

[HCIdiver]

On 11/4/2024 at 9:01 PM, HCIdiver said:

 the vacuum detector is red since i had to charge the battery.... Any quick ways to reset? Remember i cant just dry it out inside.... 

Turns out the battery was low, just needed to change it. RTFM! I left it on for days to fight the condensation issue keeping camera locked in its atmosphere.

 

In the end we got no sun this week so i stayed on the dome, with what i knew worked well. Ill be back again someday. Waiting to hear how the 2nd week group gets on, 6minutes less light every day each side. Whales could be moving further north to feed we will see ...

[kallebumba]

On 11/4/2024 at 7:43 AM, Glasshouse said:

Grab yourself a 54(outer diameter)x4mm o-ring from a hardware store. I just checked my invoice and it cost 50c. It fits nice and snug between the flat port and the WWL-1 and creates a perfect seal. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen these from Zen but then they charge underwater camera prices.

You can attach with bayonet mount in a bucket to add water but it also does a pretty good job dry. If you really wanted you could go the extra mile and use distilled water! 

The size I quoted was for the original WWL-1 but sure the same would apply to the rest of the WWL family.

 

I tried this with the WWL-1B and different orings with 54mm outer diameter.

 

A 54x4mm oring seems to be too thick, if put between the WWL-1B and the flatport i cant turn the WWL-!B to lock it in place with the bayonet.

Same for a 54x3mm.

 

A 54x2mm fits, but won't hold the water in.

 

Can you provide an image that shows how you are placing the oring?

 

 

[Glasshouse]

19 hours ago, kallebumba said:

 

I tried this with the WWL-1B and different orings with 54mm outer diameter.

 

A 54x4mm oring seems to be too thick, if put between the WWL-1B and the flatport i cant turn the WWL-!B to lock it in place with the bayonet.

Same for a 54x3mm.

 

A 54x2mm fits, but won't hold the water in.

 

Can you provide an image that shows how you are placing the oring?

 

 

Sure, I’m on the road atm but will post a pic when I get back (will be a couple of weeks).

 

I use to place the o-ring on the flat port, there is actually a small bevel on the outer edge of the glass for the ring to fit. I don’t have the flat port with me that I did this with as it’s for an older system but I can check one of the flat ports that I have with me tomorrow when I put my rig together to make sure it’s the same on all of them.

 

The 4mm for me was very tight but it does make a really nice secure fit and allowed for split shots.
 

Is the rear element framing the same in the WWL-1 and WWL-1B?

[ColdDarkDiver]

On 11/4/2024 at 8:56 AM, Brandon Cole said:

Yes, that would help lower the water's freezing temp a few degrees. But I never risked this again on this trip during the cold snap. Went back to shooting a dedicated dome attached directly to housing.

The salty water doesn't help when the air is bellow the freezing temperature of seawater due to transport as Brandon said.  I will say that my colleague uses a WWL system in Antarctica (-1.8 C water and often -20 above) without any issue, so those diving in (really) cold water should not avoid the WWL but should be aware of the important points about anything fresh freezing, as well as the impact of abrupt temperature changes that Brandon points out.