Warning, long text!

I know, it's probably the hundredth strobe question on this forum...

A brief history of my strobe equipment:

From 2005: 1x Sea&Sea YS-60

From 2009: 2x Inon Z-220

From 2011: 3x Sea&Sea YS-110a

From 2014: 2x Seacam 250D

From 2022: 2x Seacam 150D

The Seacam 250D strobes were by far the best I've ever owned. Two flash tubes - one very large with very warm, soft light for wide-angle photography (even without a diffuser) and a significantly smaller one with cooler light for macro and snoot photography - perfect! Add to that a TTL that worked almost flawlessly with the Canon 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV, and lots of power.

However, the strobes also had two major drawbacks: they were, of course, large and heavy (due to their 250Ws output) and even more problematic: the battery wasn't user-replaceable.

Anyway, I switched to the Seacam 150D, not least because of the carry-on weight restrictions on airplanes, and was considerably less satisfied overall - apart from the size and weight.

Since I've just switched my entire system from Seacam to Nauticam, and I was never truly happy with the 150D's TTL performance on the R5 anyway, I'm selling these strobes.

Now I'm faced with the question of how best to replace it.

Since I often take backlit shots with the fisheye lens, the 150Ws of the 150D was often insufficient for me – I was spoiled by my old 250D.

Unfortunately, there aren't many current alternatives that offer warm light, a wide beam angle, and high flash output.

I had actually already decided on the Ikelite DS230/232, as these, together with the Ikelite TTL converter, supposedly provide very reliable TTL and have decent power.

Although I've always used manual flash for wide-angle shots, I often use TTL for macro photography.

I'm also a bit skeptical about flash output in Ws - that's surely only half the story. I don't know of any website that shows comprehensive A/B comparisons of the flash output of current strobes, although I have seen the comparisons by DreiFish and Kiliii Yuan.

Since 2010, I've frequently used snoots for macro photography, so at some point I bought the Retra LSD with the corresponding mounting adapter for my Sea&Sea 110a and all my other strobes.

I actually wanted to continue using the Retra LSD, but there's no longer a mounting adapter available for Ikelite.

The Ikelite DS230/232 strobes have another disadvantage: I can only control them electrically, not optically.

I'm now mentally preparing to buy two Backscatter Mini strobes for macro photography. They seem to have enough power for that and I can use a snoot and color filters.

In that case, however, I would still need two more strobes for wide-angle.

Now my question to you:

What would you do in my situation?

Is there a strobe on the market that has more power, a warmer color temperature, and at least as wide a beam angle as the Seacam 150D, and can also be used for macro photography (with a snoot!)?

Or will I have to buy four strobes after all, and even then I still wouldn't know which ones would be best for wide-angle?

All hints and advices are welcome!

I think the strobe would be the Backscatter HF-1: plenty of power, warm temperature with 4500K diffuser and wide beam (even wider with the dome diffusers (that I never use, even not required, when 180° fisheye)). Also a snoot (Backscatter OS-3) is available...

I, personally, use two HF-1s since two years for WA and macro with Sony A7R5 and the peformance is great.

Since two HF-1s are pretty big for macro, I have acquired two MF-2s plus OS-1 snoot a year ago. A single MF-2 & OS-1 is great for snooting and easy to use.

In my hands, the bare MF-2s (without snoot) work only well for macro (up to the size of an intermediate fishhead, e.g. smaller muraena eel), when I aim the strobes directly at the subject. I find them unusable for other lighting techniques, e.g indirect, because they are too weak.

At present I keep one MF-2 & snoot (the other MF-2 is available in classified here), but have ordered a snoot (OS-3) for the HF-1s. In case the snoot works well, I will also sell the second MF-2 and the snoot...

A new strobe, the Retra Maxi, came out that sits in the same niche. I do not know the performance of this strobe (evenness of light, temperature, snoot available?), but reviews by others are right on the way...

I also must say that I got problems with both HF-1s after two years of use, because in both flashes the contacts corroded (no water inbrake, just moisture). They are right now, out at Backscatter for repair. It may have been an individul case, however (N=2)...

Wolfgang

Edited yesterday at 01:45 PM1 day by Architeuthis

Look at the Marelux Apollo III units or even Apollo S units......Fabulous build quality, light output and features......

Phil Rudin on here is a Marelux Sr. adviser but writes honest reviews on all manner of gear.....

He and long time UW Photo Pro Andy Sallmon are using them to make great images.

www.marelux.co

Photos shot with ONE Marelux Apollo S unit, Canon R50 camera in Nauticam NA-R50 housing, WA wet lens......

2 hours ago, Architeuthis said:

I think the strobe would be the Backscatter HF-1: plenty of power, warm temperature with 4500K diffuser and wide beam (even wider with the dome diffusers (that I never use, even not required, when 180° fisheye)). Also a snoot (Backscatter OS-3) is available...

I, personally, use two HF-1s since two years for WA and macro with Sony A7R5 and the peformance is great.

Since two HF-1s are pretty big for macro, I have acquired two MF-2s plus OS-1 snoot a year ago. A single MF-2 & OS-1 is great for snooting and easy to use.

In my hands, the bare MF-2s (without snoot) work only well for macro (up to the size of an intermediate fishhead, e.g. smaller muraena eel), when I aim the strobes directly at the subject. I find them unusable for other lighting techniques, e.g indirect, because they are too weak.

At present I keep one MF-2 & snoot (the other MF-2 is available in classified here), but have ordered a snoot (OS-3) for the HF-1s. In case the snoot works well, I will also sell the second MF-2 and the snoot...

A new strobe, the Retra Maxi, came out that sits in the same niche. I do not know the performance of this strobe (evenness of light, temperature, snoot available?), but reviews by others are right on the way...

I also must say that I got problems with both HF-1s after two years of use, because in both flashes the contacts corroded (no water inbrake, just moisture). They are right now, out at Backscatter for repair. It may have been an individul case, however (N=2)...

Wolfgang

Thanks so far, Wolfgang!

I just noticed, though, that the HF-1 with TTL only supports Sony and OM systems, and a Nauticam TTL converter doesn't work with backscatter strobes.

I have no idea if there are any good third-party converters available – I haven't had to look into that before.

I'd have the same TTL problem with the Backscatter Mini, of course.

Regarding the Retra Maxi, I've read that it has plenty of power but very cold light (6000K).

There's a diffuser available, of course, but how bright is it then?

2 hours ago, dhaas said:

Look at the Marelux Apollo III units or even Apollo S units......Fabulous build quality, light output and features......

Phil Rudin on here is a Marelux Sr. adviser but writes honest reviews on all manner of gear.....

He and long time UW Photo Pro Andy Sallmon are using them to make great images.

www.marelux.co

Photos shot with ONE Marelux Apollo S unit, Canon R50 camera in Nauticam NA-R50 housing, WA wet lens......

Did you read this comparison test:

https://blog.kiliii.com/underwater-strobe-shootout-marelux-apollo-iii-2-0-retra-maxi-seacam-160d-retra-pro-ii/

The Apollo doesn't seem like a very good alternative in comparison.

26 minutes ago, waso said:

I just noticed, though, that the HF-1 with TTL only supports Sony and OM systems, and a Nauticam TTL converter doesn't work with backscatter strobes.

Actually that’s no longer true!

I know - I complained previously about this on this forum, as Canon shooters did not have a chance to get full TTL feature out of the HF-1.

But with the launch of TRT smart3 flash trigger for canon mirrorless cameras that seems history 😅

26 minutes ago, waso said:

I just noticed, though, that the HF-1 with TTL only supports Sony and OM systems, and a Nauticam TTL converter doesn't work with backscatter strobes.

Actually that’s no longer true!

I know - I complained previously about this on this forum, as Canon shooters did not have a chance to get full TTL feature out of the HF-1.

But with the launch of TRT smart3 flash trigger for canon mirrorless cameras that seems history 😅

30 minutes ago, waso said:

Did you read this comparison test:

https://blog.kiliii.com/underwater-strobe-shootout-marelux-apollo-iii-2-0-retra-maxi-seacam-160d-retra-pro-ii/

The Apollo doesn't seem like a very good alternative in comparison.

Mhhhh,….. 🫢🤭🧐

Didn‘t you ask yourself why the author of that review artificially crippled the speed test for burst shooting so one particular highly praised product was able to keep up with that slow fps ?

21 minutes ago, Adventurer said:

Mhhhh,….. 🫢🤭🧐

Didn‘t you ask yourself why the author of that review artificially crippled the speed test for burst shooting so one particular highly praised product was able to keep up with that slow fps ?

What is your issue? Details would be great.

I am going to post burst comparisons shortly, and I only use 3FPS. Maxi, HF-1, Atom strobes.

For one, 3fps is the only speed I care about or use, and second it is more than sufficient to highlight capabilities of the strobes recycling time and behavior once the capacitor is exhausted.

Edited 22 hours ago22 hr by Dave_Hicks

I would defer to Dave Hick's testing but I do agree as he says......How many people are really shooting more that 3-5 FPS bursts? A small percentage of UW photographers I'd think......

As to Canon and TTL currently many manufacturers have chosen to mainly support Sony and OM / Olympus RC flash protocols. Which is sad as Canon TTL flash has been around a long time and works well when a hot shoe / circuitry is matched with a strobes supporting it.

I've shot 100% TTL for decades and the newest fiber optical transmitters will be the next change in camera to flash protocol in my opinion.

David Haas

Edited 19 hours ago19 hr by dhaas

7 hours ago, waso said:

Warning, long text!

I know, it's probably the hundredth strobe question on this forum...

A brief history of my strobe equipment:

From 2005: 1x Sea&Sea YS-60

From 2009: 2x Inon Z-220

From 2011: 3x Sea&Sea YS-110a

From 2014: 2x Seacam 250D

From 2022: 2x Seacam 150D

The Seacam 250D strobes were by far the best I've ever owned. Two flash tubes - one very large with very warm, soft light for wide-angle photography (even without a diffuser) and a significantly smaller one with cooler light for macro and snoot photography - perfect! Add to that a TTL that worked almost flawlessly with the Canon 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV, and lots of power.

However, the strobes also had two major drawbacks: they were, of course, large and heavy (due to their 250Ws output) and even more problematic: the battery wasn't user-replaceable.

Anyway, I switched to the Seacam 150D, not least because of the carry-on weight restrictions on airplanes, and was considerably less satisfied overall - apart from the size and weight.

Since I've just switched my entire system from Seacam to Nauticam, and I was never truly happy with the 150D's TTL performance on the R5 anyway, I'm selling these strobes.

Now I'm faced with the question of how best to replace it.

Since I often take backlit shots with the fisheye lens, the 150Ws of the 150D was often insufficient for me – I was spoiled by my old 250D.

Unfortunately, there aren't many current alternatives that offer warm light, a wide beam angle, and high flash output.

I had actually already decided on the Ikelite DS230/232, as these, together with the Ikelite TTL converter, supposedly provide very reliable TTL and have decent power.

Although I've always used manual flash for wide-angle shots, I often use TTL for macro photography.

I'm also a bit skeptical about flash output in Ws - that's surely only half the story. I don't know of any website that shows comprehensive A/B comparisons of the flash output of current strobes, although I have seen the comparisons by DreiFish and Kiliii Yuan.

Since 2010, I've frequently used snoots for macro photography, so at some point I bought the Retra LSD with the corresponding mounting adapter for my Sea&Sea 110a and all my other strobes.

I actually wanted to continue using the Retra LSD, but there's no longer a mounting adapter available for Ikelite.

The Ikelite DS230/232 strobes have another disadvantage: I can only control them electrically, not optically.

I'm now mentally preparing to buy two Backscatter Mini strobes for macro photography. They seem to have enough power for that and I can use a snoot and color filters.

In that case, however, I would still need two more strobes for wide-angle.

Now my question to you:

What would you do in my situation?

Is there a strobe on the market that has more power, a warmer color temperature, and at least as wide a beam angle as the Seacam 150D, and can also be used for macro photography (with a snoot!)?

Or will I have to buy four strobes after all, and even then I still wouldn't know which ones would be best for wide-angle?

All hints and advices are welcome!

Your UW photography journey/story looks exa ctly like mine...
Noit Seacam but Subtronic, yet Seacam houses Subtronic electronic...
Same long story, and still with my Subtronic MEGA, the most powerful strobes ever builts, with 2 ring etc... You all know the story guys.

But one question : why would ypou abandon them just for TTL???
Such strobes are for (ultra) wide-angle. You never need such power for Macro, or even CFWA.

My approach : keep what you have and invest in very smll strobes like the MF3 or the AOI for macro only.

And continue to use the high output ones for WA

3 hours ago, Adventurer said:

Actually that’s no longer true!

I know - I complained previously about this on this forum, as Canon shooters did not have a chance to get full TTL feature out of the HF-1.

But with the launch of TRT smart3 flash trigger for canon mirrorless cameras that seems history 😅

Interesting - I hadn't heard of the e-Turtle Smart TTL 3 Trigger before.

3 hours ago, Adventurer said:

Mhhhh,….. 🫢🤭🧐

Didn‘t you ask yourself why the author of that review artificially crippled the speed test for burst shooting so one particular highly praised product was able to keep up with that slow fps ?

Actually, shooting more than 3fps with a strobe for me would be a 'nice to have' but not a 'must have'.

Other features (for me!) are much more important (light qualitiy, fall of, temperature, angle).

What I would have been much more interested in is how much light output it costs to use the diffusers.

So, a comparison with the same warm light temperature and maximum power.

2 hours ago, dhaas said:

Fun disclosure you can search my name.....I've shot 100% TTL for decades and the newest fiber optical transmitters will be the next change in camera to flash protocol in my opinion.

That's why in the future I would prefer to control the strobes optically only.

33 minutes ago, lambee01 said:

But one question : why would ypou abandon them just for TTL???
Such strobes are for (ultra) wide-angle. You never need such power for Macro, or even CFWA.

My approach : keep what you have and invest in very smll strobes like the MF3 or the AOI for macro only.

And continue to use the high output ones for WA

I already sold my big Seacam strobes (reasons read above) and the 150Ds are not satisfying at all.

Honestly, they haven't even been strong enough to shoot macro with a retra snoot (ISO 100, F16).

4 hours ago, Adventurer said:

Mhhhh,….. 🫢🤭🧐

Didn‘t you ask yourself why the author of that review artificially crippled the speed test for burst shooting so one particular highly praised product was able to keep up with that slow fps ?

Please, if you didn't like the tests that were done:

• Stick to the facts and don't get personal.

• Raise your doubts politely in the specific thread.

The goal is to have a constructive exchange of ideas, so let's keep the discussion professional and helpful for everyone.