You have all successfully convinced me to go for something more modern than the Canin 7D, but I don't know yet what that something should be... so here are some criteria, and ask any questions because I'm coming from 35mm film days and camera specs were a lot simpler/different then! Something smaller than a large DSLR rig would sure be nice as I'm already carrying so much stuff when CCR diving that a large camera system just gets in the way.

Having looked at the Nauticam port charts, a Micro four thirds system that uses the N85 ports seems like the way to go as there are a reasonable number of ports and lens combinations for Nauticam and other housings such as AOI in that size range. Someone mentioned in the other thread about the Canon R50, there doesn't seem to be a wide range of ports available for that one though.

So I think that limits manufacturers to Sony, Panasonic or Olympus/OM - I've never used any of them so know absolutely nothing about them at all - in fact I have never used a digital camera apart from a phone one.

So here goes... in no particular order

- camera/housing must be able to use an external HDMI monitor
- must be compatible with fibre optic strobe triggering - but I don't need TTL
- I'm happy to buy secondhand
- must have good low light autofocus
- must have a good range of OEM and aftermarket lenses suitable for underwater photography

- must have controls/ranges that would be familiar to an 35mm SLR user - e.g F2.8 to F22 or greater, shutter speed controls etc
- must have really good battery life

- must be able to produce a good quality image - not sure how many megapixels that requires?

I've no idea what else are required as far as speccing a camera these days?

Hi CCRphoto

I've just gone down a similar path myself and the criteria you outline are pretty common ones. A good number of members - especially we, errr, more aging ones, are looking to "downsize" and have less gear to carry.

I gave up on FF camera bodies (Nikon D800) in 2017 as having to lug a 230mm domeport - or some sort of big glass wetlens - was becoming a pain. I settled on the D500 APS-C system which, generally, allowed for slightly smaller bits of gear. I lost all that recently so had to rebuild from scratch.

I'm not at all persuaded by the marketing charms of needing FF and high megapixel camera bodies for underwater. I sell lots of images and no-one has ever grumbled that they are not produced by a FF camera. I reckon 20MB is plenty unless you want massive prints or are shooting purely commercial imagery. Topside is different (no ports!!).

Listening to folks here, I came to the conclusion that the OM System plus Nauticam was the way to go. The OM System is compact and light-weight but still has 20+MB sensor. Nauticam has become, perhaps, the system most used by people who want aluminium housings, providing good support and innovative products which are continually developed.

I've now acquired a housing, 45-degree viewfinder, arms and clamps, N85 WA and macro ports, an OM-1ii camera body, and Panasonic 8mm FE and Olympus 60mm macro lenses. The housing is smaller, slightly, than the (Subal) D500 housing, the camera and lenses significantly smaller than FF or APS-C (almost like back to the OM-1 and OM-2 days of the 1970s). But put the whole package together, add two Retra strobes, and weight and volume wise, they are not that much different to my APS-C system. But then maybe I just need to give up trying to pack everything into a heavy Pelican 1510 case!

Fibre optic initiation: yep, a definite must. I don't use TTL either but do want HSS. That rules out the Nauticam trigger. But both Turtle and UWT have compact triggers which do the trick nicely. Both are quality products with very good support. I can recommend either.

Familiarity of controls: well if you've never stepped into digital, there is a big difference in the ability to customise controls. Effectively the camera body is a mini computer which you can customise to your heart's content. I doubt I scrape 10% of what they can truly do. I set mine to Manual exposure, AF in one form or another, shoot RAW, Auto WB and very rarely, burst shots (without strobes for, eg dolphins). The OM will let you set up a number of, effectively, customised setting folders so you can switch easily between one setup and another. Think one set of settings for macro, one for WA controlled by the flick of a switch. But there is sure a learning curve - even switching from Nikon to OM! But the basic "photo references" remain, eg, ISO, Shutter speed, Aperture etc. And, the most important thing, composition - which is what it is truly all about - is not digital! That hasn't changed at all.

Hope this helps a bit! Good luck with it. They are not easy decisions for sure.

Many thanks for that comprehensive reply @TimG . You were in the unfortunate position of having to replace everything / start from scratch very recently and so you were kind of where I am at but for very different reasons.

More than 20-25MP is mostly only needed by people who can't compose properly and so need to crop like heck - well that's my opinion anyway😀

The OM-1 MII seems to be the pick of the M4/3 cameras that work well for underwater stills. There are lots of rumours of a Mark III coming out in the next couple of months - but like a lot of these rumours it is 9/10ths speculation and 1/10th wishful thinking combined with people making social media content about it because they can - we won't know until the day that it is announced. I've got some shares that are (finally) getting the price rerating that they deserve so I'm happy to wait a few weeks and see if the MIII materialises, and if so whether the improvements are ones that are useful for underwater photography - and whether it will fit into the existing housing or... The Australian GoDiving show is in about five weeks, so I might go to that and suss a few things out.

Do the lenses from the various companies making M4/3 cameras all share the mount? (or did you have to get an adaptor for the Panasonic 8mm Fisheye?).

I've just been doing some reading, and of the available housings for the OM-1 MII the Nauticam seems to be the way to go - AOI housings for the OM-1 sound like they are very very hit or miss as to whether you get a good one or one that is a complete nightmare.

With your Nauticam housing - the specs say 307mm wide - does that include the handles or just the housing?

I'm hoping that I will be able to fit the entire housing and camera package into a Lowepro roller carryon, and then the rebreather can go in its huge Pelican case from their lightweight series (can't remember their marketing name for them).

Australia back to Europe for any repairs to Retra strobes is quite a hassle and expense so I will be looking for something with decent punch that is sold/warranted locally. Inon are releasing a new Z360 strobe sometime soonish... the Backscatter Hydrid HF-1 sounds interesting too - can buy them locally.

5 hours ago, CCRphoto said:

Y Someone mentioned in the other thread about the Canon R50, there doesn't seem to be a wide range of ports available for that one though.

The current housings for the Canon R50 (and one of the newer Nikons) have a fixed port. They are designed to be simple camera systems for the kit lens utilizing the Nauticam/AOI water contact optics for zoom through wide angle and macro.

Thus not needing to commit to a port system while you decide what you want and what you decide may be that you do not need a port system. Or not the one you think you want now. Water contact optics are viable alternatives.

Edited July 31Jul 31 by Nemrod

13 minutes ago, Nemrod said:

The current housings for the Canon R50 (and one of the newer Nikons) have a fixed port. They are designed to be simple camera systems for the kit lens utilizing the Nauticam/AOI water contact optics for zoom through wide angle and macro.

Thus not needing to commit to a port system while you decide what you want and what you decide may be that you do not need a port system. Or not the one you think you want now. Water contact optics are viable alternatives.

OK cheers. I would definitely want something with a range of ports - I do unusual things at times...

38 minutes ago, CCRphoto said:

OK cheers. I would definitely want something with a range of ports - I do unusual things at times...

I suck at photos and in no way am I a pro. But, if I were to start over today, and have only one camera system instead of three, I would either get a Canon R7 in the Nauticam housing or the OM1 Mark II (the Mark III is to be released soon) and again with a Nauticam housing. IMO, OM Systems, thanks to the split from Olympus and Covid and other issues, lags a little behind Sony and Canon in auto focus and a few other parameters which will probably be addressed with the Mark III.

2 hours ago, CCRphoto said:

Do the lenses from the various companies making M4/3 cameras all share the mount? (or did you have to get an adaptor for the Panasonic 8mm Fisheye?).

I don't know about "all" the lenses but the Panasonic 8mm is the same mount as the Olympus 60mm and fits on the OM-1 without an adaptor.

Without the housing brackets the Nauticam is 230mm wide. The 307mm must refer to the housing plus handles. I can see that for travelling that disconnecting the handles will be very helpful. And it's quick and easy to do.

Any lens marketed as m4/3 will fit without an adapter on any camera with an m4/3 mount. That’s the point of the standard.

However, it’s important to be clear about functionality. Olympus and Panasonic lenses will all work perfectly on autofocus (and stabilization, but that’s not so important UW). Others such as Laowa may only be manual focus or may not be autofocus and/or stabilization compliant. Of course if you’re one of those masochists that insist on focusing manually, then those are features not bugs!

I use the Olympus 60mm macro (brilliant), Panasonic 8mm fisheye (very good), and rarely the Olympus 12mm rectilinear (just decent). There are also options for the Olympus PRO series 90mm macro and 8mm fisheye but they require N120 adapters. Stay away from the 14-42 and 7-14 zooms, the former is an awkward range and the port for the latter produces very poor corners. For a zoom there are the Olympus 9-18, 8-25, and 12-40 but these also all require N120 port adapters and extension. It’s also possible to adapt a Canon 8-15, so if that appeals, ask Chris Ross.

Oh, as for housing size, to fit in most rollers, you’ll likely need to remove the handles. That’s what I do and it’s no big deal.

Edited July 31Jul 31 by Troporobo
One more thought

What TimG said.

I’m a Sony shooter now, but rue the day I gave up my Olympus in a fit of sensor envy. Sony is great for topside photography, too, but all in all, if I had to rebuild my system, I’d go Olym, er, OM Systems. Just have a look at the 8mm Panny or Olympus fisheyes and the 60mm macro, and you will marvel at their size. Good stuff, too!

OM System ticks all your boxes I’m sure, except maybe the monitor? The Panasonics will do that. Focusing and such aren’t as good in m43 versus the current Sonys, Canons and Nikons.

Edited July 31Jul 31 by humu9679
grammar, spelling

Given your criteria, I would suggest you look into the WACP and WWL lenses for the various systems and Sony is the no brainer here. If I wanted a small system, Sony A7cii with WWL or WACP (although there is not a huge size hit for going any of the A7 series). Your suggestion that the fixed port of the R50 as a limiting factor suggests you haven't really looked into the advantages of wet mate lenses. Don't mean offense if you have. The various options get away from large domes and work at more open f/stops as well as in water flexibility.

As soon as you add a monitor you have a big system. Like real big - so the housing size is only a small piece of the size puzzle if you are actually considering an external monitor. Plus if diving where you need light (aka everywhere) then again - the system has grown with arms, floats, etc. If anything the larger housing makes it easier to handle (when collecting imagery) and control but to each their own.

I do miss the small size of the good ol film camera! But then again, I took >500 shots on three dives yesterday. That would have been a lot of slide film!

The issue I have with many Sony cameras is the slow sync speeds and always on TTL flash. The Sony A7cii has a 1/160 sync speed in FF and 1/200 in APS-C mode. Most Canon and OM seem to be 1/250 for flash sync. Owning both a Sony A6400 and a Canon R50, the sync speed difference is not huge but definitely an advantage to the faster little pocket rocket, that being the R50. And Canon color in jpeg and white balance is just better.

10 hours ago, CCRphoto said:

Many thanks for that comprehensive reply @TimG . You were in the unfortunate position of having to replace everything / start from scratch very recently and so you were kind of where I am at but for very different reasons.

More than 20-25MP is mostly only needed by people who can't compose properly and so need to crop like heck - well that's my opinion anyway😀

The OM-1 MII seems to be the pick of the M4/3 cameras that work well for underwater stills. There are lots of rumours of a Mark III coming out in the next couple of months - but like a lot of these rumours it is 9/10ths speculation and 1/10th wishful thinking combined with people making social media content about it because they can - we won't know until the day that it is announced. I've got some shares that are (finally) getting the price rerating that they deserve so I'm happy to wait a few weeks and see if the MIII materialises, and if so whether the improvements are ones that are useful for underwater photography - and whether it will fit into the existing housing or... The Australian GoDiving show is in about five weeks, so I might go to that and suss a few things out.

Do the lenses from the various companies making M4/3 cameras all share the mount? (or did you have to get an adaptor for the Panasonic 8mm Fisheye?).

I've just been doing some reading, and of the available housings for the OM-1 MII the Nauticam seems to be the way to go - AOI housings for the OM-1 sound like they are very very hit or miss as to whether you get a good one or one that is a complete nightmare.

With your Nauticam housing - the specs say 307mm wide - does that include the handles or just the housing?

I'm hoping that I will be able to fit the entire housing and camera package into a Lowepro roller carryon, and then the rebreather can go in its huge Pelican case from their lightweight series (can't remember their marketing name for them).

Australia back to Europe for any repairs to Retra strobes is quite a hassle and expense so I will be looking for something with decent punch that is sold/warranted locally. Inon are releasing a new Z360 strobe sometime soonish... the Backscatter Hydrid HF-1 sounds interesting too - can buy them locally.

Tim has covered the basics of the case for m43. I would add that particularly in Australia also include Isotta in the mix, they are quite popular here and will be cheaper, how much depends on what model you are looking at. You can also opt for the OM-5 and the housing will be somewhat cheaper still, but the battery is smaller. My OM-1 is good for 3 x 1 hour dives on its battery and still has some charge left.

Another option is second hand with an EM-1 MkII or MkIII which has most of the features of the OM-1 and you will save quite a bit on the housing. I wouldn't get too worried about whether a OM-1 III is in the works or not, it needs to be announced, then released then the housing manufacturers need to decide to support it and release the housing. I wouldn't expect night and day improvements, most cameras these days in spite of all the hype are incremental improvements.

Regarding strobes, no matter who you pick service will likely be sent off overseas somehwere, better to go with a brand with good reliability reputation.

on the OM-1 housing - it is 307mm across - noting the handles are adjustable in and out. The Isotta housing is slightly smaller.

11 hours ago, Nemrod said:

I suck at photos and in no way am I a pro. But, if I were to start over today, and have only one camera system instead of three, I would either get a Canon R7 in the Nauticam housing or the OM1 Mark II (the Mark III is to be released soon) and again with a Nauticam housing. IMO, OM Systems, thanks to the split from Olympus and Covid and other issues, lags a little behind Sony and Canon in auto focus and a few other parameters which will probably be addressed with the Mark III.

Cheers - another vote for OM-1. Hopefully the Mark III will be released soon - bonus points if it fits the existing housing!

9 hours ago, TimG said:

I don't know about "all" the lenses but the Panasonic 8mm is the same mount as the Olympus 60mm and fits on the OM-1 without an adaptor.

Without the housing brackets the Nauticam is 230mm wide. The 307mm must refer to the housing plus handles. I can see that for travelling that disconnecting the handles will be very helpful. And it's quick and easy to do.

Cheers Tim - all good information to know.

Have you had a chance to take your OM-1 underwater yet?

7 hours ago, Troporobo said:

Any lens marketed as m4/3 will fit without an adapter on any camera with an m4/3 mount. That’s the point of the standard.

However, it’s important to be clear about functionality. Olympus and Panasonic lenses will all work perfectly on autofocus (and stabilization, but that’s not so important UW). Others such as Laowa may only be manual focus or may not be autofocus and/or stabilization compliant. Of course if you’re one of those masochists that insist on focusing manually, then those are features not bugs!

I use the Olympus 60mm macro (brilliant), Panasonic 8mm fisheye (very good), and rarely the Olympus 12mm rectilinear (just decent). There are also options for the Olympus PRO series 90mm macro and 8mm fisheye but they require N120 adapters. Stay away from the 14-42 and 7-14 zooms, the former is an awkward range and the port for the latter produces very poor corners. For a zoom there are the Olympus 9-18, 8-25, and 12-40 but these also all require N120 port adapters and extension. It’s also possible to adapt a Canon 8-15, so if that appeals, ask Chris Ross.

Oh, as for housing size, to fit in most rollers, you’ll likely need to remove the handles. That’s what I do and it’s no big deal.

Definitely not a manual focus masochist these days - my eyes are too old for that!

I didn't realise that M4/3 was an actual standard - good to know.

Great info about the lenses - cheers! Saves some trial and error!

7 hours ago, humu9679 said:

What TimG said.

I’m a Sony shooter now, but rue the day I gave up my Olympus in a fit of sensor envy. Sony is great for topside photography, too, but all in all, if I had to rebuild my system, I’d go Olym, er, OM Systems. Just have a look at the 8mm Panny or Olympus fisheyes and the 60mm macro, and you will marvel at their size. Good stuff, too!

OM System ticks all your boxes I’m sure, except maybe the monitor? The Panasonics will do that. Focusing and such aren’t as good in m43 versus the current Sonys, Canons and Nikons.

I think that the OM + Nauticam housing will have monitor capability but I will check!

3 hours ago, ColdDarkDiver said:

Given your criteria, I would suggest you look into the WACP and WWL lenses for the various systems and Sony is the no brainer here. If I wanted a small system, Sony A7cii with WWL or WACP (although there is not a huge size hit for going any of the A7 series). Your suggestion that the fixed port of the R50 as a limiting factor suggests you haven't really looked into the advantages of wet mate lenses. Don't mean offense if you have. The various options get away from large domes and work at more open f/stops as well as in water flexibility.

As soon as you add a monitor you have a big system. Like real big - so the housing size is only a small piece of the size puzzle if you are actually considering an external monitor. Plus if diving where you need light (aka everywhere) then again - the system has grown with arms, floats, etc. If anything the larger housing makes it easier to handle (when collecting imagery) and control but to each their own.

I do miss the small size of the good ol film camera! But then again, I took >500 shots on three dives yesterday. That would have been a lot of slide film!

Definitely will need an external monitor. I can see that digital will certainly have some advantages over a roll of 36! I don't think that GenZ would cope very well with film!

I haven't looked too far into wet lenses yet, I think that will come later after I have learnt to use the system.

2 hours ago, Nemrod said:

The issue I have with many Sony cameras is the slow sync speeds and always on TTL flash. The Sony A7cii has a 1/160 sync speed in FF and 1/200 in APS-C mode. Most Canon and OM seem to be 1/250 for flash sync. Owning both a Sony A6400 and a Canon R50, the sync speed difference is not huge but definitely an advantage to the faster little pocket rocket, that being the R50. And Canon color in jpeg and white balance is just better.

Interesting - will be interesting to see what the OM-1 Mark III is like.

2 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

Tim has covered the basics of the case for m43. I would add that particularly in Australia also include Isotta in the mix, they are quite popular here and will be cheaper, how much depends on what model you are looking at. You can also opt for the OM-5 and the housing will be somewhat cheaper still, but the battery is smaller. My OM-1 is good for 3 x 1 hour dives on its battery and still has some charge left.

Another option is second hand with an EM-1 MkII or MkIII which has most of the features of the OM-1 and you will save quite a bit on the housing. I wouldn't get too worried about whether a OM-1 III is in the works or not, it needs to be announced, then released then the housing manufacturers need to decide to support it and release the housing. I wouldn't expect night and day improvements, most cameras these days in spite of all the hype are incremental improvements.

Regarding strobes, no matter who you pick service will likely be sent off overseas somehwere, better to go with a brand with good reliability reputation.

on the OM-1 housing - it is 307mm across - noting the handles are adjustable in and out. The Isotta housing is slightly smaller.

I think that I am fairly sold on the OM-1 now, will take a look at Nauticam & Isotta housings if I get to the GoDiving show in Sydney in a month or so. Good to know that battery life of the OM-1 will meet my needs!

I've got to do some research on Strobes. What are you using and how have you found them to be?

In case you intend to buy new and wait for the OM1-III to appear: There are wild rumors that Nikon will offer an APS-C model based on Z8/Z9 technology this year - in case this turns out to be drue, this is certainly very worth a consideration for a small sensor UW-camera system...

mirrorlessrumors

The APS-C Camera Wars Are Here: Fujifilm X-T6, Canon R10...

Nikon Canon and Fujifilm are about to unleash three new High End APS-C cameras! Fujifilm X-T6 is coming on September 3 Nikon “mini Z9” is coming in autumn with 45MP stacked sensor Canon R10II with new

In case you go second hand, anything starting from Olympus EM1II and upwards is a very good way to get started with an MFT system (upgrade Nauticam housing and camera at a later stage)...

Wolfgang

If I where buying today and wanted something small and high-level w/o ”breaking” the bank, I’d take a serious look at Nikons new little fullframe z5ii. Throw it in a Nauticam with the 24-50 and put a wwl-c on it and you have a very tiny package with a serious punch. For macro there’s the ”new” z105 lens. Smaller than a lot of cropped sensor alternatives.

Edited August 1Aug 1 by Christian K

Hey @CCRphoto - I'm a long time Nauticam user with several Sony FF models over the years. I just helped a buddy set up a OM-1 in a Nauticam rig and I have to say it is pretty incredible.

First, the size. While I enjoy using mine in the water, the smaller size of his rig is much more manageable on and off the boat. Yes, adding the strobes brings on additional bulk, but it feels more comfortable in use.

My buddy is interested in an all purpose zoom solution so we opted for the 12-50 and the WWL-C. Again, very small overall. The WWL adds nice corner-to-corner sharpness, even at more open apertures with a 130 degree FoV at the wide end. I compare his images to mine using the Sony and WACP and they are very similar in quality.

Nauticam has become the more premium priced housing, but the durability and support warrant the investment.

In all, I agree with those above in saying the OM-1 would be a solid option.

Enjoy!

chip

Europe and Australia recently struck a trade deal making almost all import/export tarrif free. Especially strobes and accessories (tarrif codes 9006.61 and 9006.99) are now free of any tarrif charges except local GST which currently sits at 10% making the final price even more affordable than in Europe where average VAT rate is around 22%.

Shipping is fast too, 2-3 working days to most locations from EU to AU. Repairs are rarely required but in case something brakes the turnaround would be 2 weeks from pickup to delivery. The same team that designs and produces the strobe will also service/repair it to guarantee the highest quality.

6 hours ago, Architeuthis said:

In case you intend to buy new and wait for the OM1-III to appear: There are wild rumors that Nikon will offer an APS-C model based on Z8/Z9 technology this year - in case this turns out to be drue, this is certainly very worth a consideration for a small sensor UW-camera system...

mirrorlessrumors

The APS-C Camera Wars Are Here: Fujifilm X-T6, Canon R10...

Nikon Canon and Fujifilm are about to unleash three new High End APS-C cameras! Fujifilm X-T6 is coming on September 3 Nikon “mini Z9” is coming in autumn with 45MP stacked sensor Canon R10II with new

In case you go second hand, anything starting from Olympus EM1II and upwards is a very good way to get started with an MFT system (upgrade Nauticam housing and camera at a later stage)...

Wolfgang

The Nikon could be an interesting option - a lot will depend on timing, at the moment I'm not sure whether it is going to take another two weeks for the shares that I am going to be selling to hit their peak - or is it going to take another 3-4 months until after the next set of quarterly financials are released... very hard to tell but they jumped 19% on Friday after the April-June quarterly report was released on Friday morning, and should go up another 100-125% from here now that they have proven that they can mine and process the copper consistently and successfully. Its a very good time to be owning shares in a copper miner.

5 hours ago, Christian K said:

If I where buying today and wanted something small, I’d take a serious look at Nikons new little fullframe z5ii. Throw it in a Nauticam with the 24-50 and put a wwl-c on it and you have a very tiny package with a serious punch. For macro there’s the new z105 lens.

OK will take a look at that too...