GoPro dethroned. Is Insta360 Ace Pro the new king of action cameras?

[Jochen]

Aquatic has done a comparison between the Insta 360 and DJI Action 4. The Insta 360 seem to produce very good video at least to my eye. 

 

 

[DreiFish]

Nice comparison. It would be great if AOI (or others) offered an advanced housing for the Insta360 Ace Pro like they have for the GoPro now. https://www.backscatter.com/AOI-GoPro-HERO-9-10-11-12-Underwater-Housing-UH-GPX

[bghazzal]

Nice comparison, but surprisingly - on such a clip anyway - not that much of an upgrade from even prehistoric GoPro models like the 7 I still have...
Have action cams have hit their limits, and the new Emperor-King of action cams really wears no clothes?
the specs are ot of this world, but the results - as far as I can see - are, well, much more down to earth...
 

Edited June 12 by bghazzal

[DreiFish]

8 hours ago, bghazzal said:

Nice comparison, but surprisingly - on such a clip anyway - not that much of an upgrade from even prehistoric GoPro models like the 7 I still have...
Have action cams have hit their limits, and the new Emperor-King of action cams really wears no clothes?
the specs are ot of this world, but the results - as far as I can see - are, well, much more down to earth...
 

For me, the real improvement is the white balance at depth and (to some extent) the reduced noise.

[bghazzal]

1 hour ago, DreiFish said:

For me, the real improvement is the white balance at depth and (to some extent) the reduced noise.

 

Good to know thanks - we'll see - I might update in the near future if I can find a way to use a (good) filter at depth. I've been using the UR-Pro cyan in a flat profile and white-balancing in post since the GoPro 4, it just works for ambient light wide-angle.

Unfortunately, since the 8 upgrade it's been difficult to mount filters (I have a 55mm mm mount for the supersuit, and both 55mm acrylic and 52mm glass UR-Pros)  - not really interested in the Backscatter flip/insert solutions as I don't think the filter colour balance is as good as the results I'm getting. It's actually one of the reasons I never upgraded the 7.
 

I've tried with the Keldan Spectrum SF -1.5 I use on my compact (it's a gel, so slides in the GP housing), and unfortunately the results were not good at all compared to the UR-Pro.

I'll try some test shots with a Magic Filter gel tomorrow, see how it performs.
Ideally, I'd like to use a good filter like the UR-Pro combined with the new AOI wide lenses, but it's a bit of a headache. If the Magic Filter works it would be great...

 

Edited June 12 by bghazzal

[bghazzal]

As a follow up, here are two samples shot this morning on the ol' GoPro7 with an original Magic Filter gel inside the housing.

 

I think the Magic Filter perfoms quite well in this context, so is a good practical alternative to the now-defunct UR-Pro cyan filter ( as mentioned the Keldan Spectrum -1.5 gel didn't perform well on the GoPro).

 

Since the Magic filter is a simple gel which can slide into any housing, I think it would be really interesting to try this shooting approach  (= flat profile with Magic Filter, white-balanced in post) on both newer some GoPro models, DJI Action 4 and the the New King of Action Cameras the Insta 360 Ace, to reap the benefits from improved IQ and all the rest.

 

Back to the test itself, these dull test clips were shot in ambient light only on the GoPro7 4K60fps wide, flat profile, with an Original Magic Filter gel inside the housing.
 

First clip is at 18m and second clip at 9m, shot in tropical (east Bali) mid-morning ambient light only in the usual slightly murky, particle-rich water.
The clips and white balanced in post, and crudely graded.

You can see how strongly the filter is kicking in when I film the depth on backlit dive computer.
 

 

Given the flexibility the Magic filter-gel offers, I might now upgrade to either one of the more recent action-cam model discussed here at some point in the future.

But my first investment is actually a wide-angle conversion to try to correct the GoPro's wobbly horrific corners that I've hated so much since stabilisation was introduced and field of views changed on the GoPro5.

Now assured  that I can use a respectable filter that works for my purposes, I actually ordered an AOI UWL-03 lens today.

 

To return to the original thread subject, if anyone could test the newer GoPros / DJI Action 4 / Insta 360 Ace shooting at depth in flat profile with a (good) filter white-balanced in post, it would be great to see what results can now be achieved with these new beasts.

 

cheers!

ben

 

 

Edited June 13 by bghazzal

[Elvandar]

I got the GoPro 11, and I had the polarpro red/magenta filters that are sold on the official GoPro website, but I sold them for three reason:

-The newer GoPro have a better auto white balance, and I did some test, where I was continuosly filming, where I could just see that the before and after insertion of the filter, was almost identical, because the camera would compensate it, rending it almost useless if not worsening the image by adding too much red.

-I found out that by applying a fast filter on the Quick app, or by editing in post, I would get better result without filters.

-If you use decent light, don't use filter, if you don't like a red world 

 

By not using filter, I was also able to use the INON wet lens, the UFL-G140 SD and UCL-G165 SD, wich improve by a lot the quality of the footage, and permitting me to go up to 4 cm from subject, instead of the minimum of 60 that have the GoPro without lens.

 

 

I Put here two examples, the first while I was using filter 2 years ago in the Philippines, and the second this year at raja ampat with the 140 wide lens. 

In both you can see my still shit editing skill, but concentrate on the image quality 😬

 

Philippines + filters:

 

Raja ampat + UFL-G140:

 

 

[bghazzal]

Thanks.
Frankly, I've never really seen results that I find encouraging with Polapro or even the Flipfilters - filter design really matters for these purposes.

I've been using the UR-Pro Cyan filter since the GoPro4, and it's a solid - but these are no longer made - however tests with quality filters like the Keldan Spectrum SF-1.5 gel were inconclusive.
Magic Filters seem to work well as well - these are gels, meaning you can use them with any lens accessory (but you will lose the option to shoot topside or on the surface).

I find the most important aspect when shooting with a filters is to shoot in a flat profile - which the most commonly overlooked aspect -  by shooting flat, you dont let the camera handle while balance / colour adjustments.

 

Since it's not possible to do a manual white balance at depth on a Gopro or other action cams shooting in native (flat) WB, lets the camera record without trying to / or making only minimal make adjustments.

Footage will be dull and flat out-of-the-box. However, this leaves you the possibility to do a general white balance in postproduction, and I find that this gives a much more balanced colour cast to ambient light clips.
But this only works if the footage has been shot in a flat profile.

If shooting in artificial light, yes, you can't use lights with filters, and if artificial light is your dominant light source, auto or a kelvin setting is the way to go - unless.... you use ambient light filters on the lights, ie a mixed lighting scenario.

This would be something interesting to play with - a good base are the ambient filter tests done by Interceptor121 and Dreifish, matched to good quality, well designed camera filters (the usual suspects being the late UR-Pro, Magic Filter and Keldan Spectrums).

 

Then, if the filtered light spectrum is very close to matching the ambient light spectrum, there's no reason it should work like it does on manual white balance capable cameras.

But I think it's time to open a new thread on filter use for action cameras so we don't derail this one too much 😄

EDIT - here is the thread

Edited June 14 by bghazzal

[turandot]

Coincidence that many influencers advertise Insta 360 and DJI Action 4 through Instagram and Youtube and coincidence that they are now better than the GoPro 12.

 

Before talking about "dethrone" I would talk about the perfect marketing campaign of the rest of the brands, be careful, something that GoPro has done for all these years.

[Davide DB]

Apart from the fact that finding reliable reviews on social media is a bit like looking for a unicorn 🙂

 

In my opinion, one has to distinguish between use cases. Shooting on land and shooting underwater are two completely different worlds. It has often happened that very good cameras on land were terrible or mediocre underwater.

 

[DreiFish]

While it's always healthy to be a bit skeptical of any content put out there by marketing departments and their influencer ecosystem, I do think that some of the comparison videos, especially the one from Aquatic linked above, do show stark contrasts in how well the Ace360 Pro and the DJI Action 4 handle white balance at depth. He also references his experiences with the GoPro quite extensively.

 

White balance is one of the -- if not the -- key performance characteristics one should look for in an action camera (or any other camera) intended for use for shooting video underwater. Any improvements in this area are definitely welcomed!

 

 

[turandot]

1 hour ago, DreiFish said:

Any improvements in this area are definitely welcomed!

 

 

Of course!! In addition, competition between brands is always welcome for users. It's a good time for GoPro not to fall asleep.

 

To be honest, GoPro is not the worst thing there is now, nor is the rest the best on the market. Let's not make people believe now that their equipment is "no longer worth anything" and that they need to upgrade to Ace360 Pro and the DJI Action 4.

Edited June 17 by turandot

[bghazzal]

To follow-up on the subject, did you see this ACE360 review  - especially the sequence on colour shifts when using the Ace360 in auto profiles, and the issues with locking said profile?
Interesting bit starts here:  5"40 in

 

 

on a related note, this has just been posted - a bit of Okinawan testing of the "big 3" with the AOI UWL-03

 

Sounds interesting!

 

cheers

b

Edited June 22 by bghazzal

[bghazzal]

As a follow-up, sales-pumping "rumours" strategically circulated online hint at the upcoming DJI Action5 having a 1" sensor, like the InstaAce or the already existing DJI Action3.

[Nikolausz]

On 7/6/2024 at 4:42 AM, bghazzal said:

As a follow-up, sales-pumping "rumours" strategically circulated online hint at the upcoming DJI Action5 having a 1" sensor, like the InstaAce or the already existing DJI Action3.

In my opinion, the implementation of a focus system is necessary for larger sensors to be used in action cameras. Insta360 has a 1 inch sensor module (not the AcePro, it's still 1/1.3") but it was not that successful, mainly due to lack of focusing options. It was not good for vloggers and the image improvement for landscapes was not that huge. I saw only few not that impressive underwater videos. 

[Davide DB]

Exactly.

I follow this crazy guy on YT. Always some out of the box content

He made this video a while back and solved the focus problem with a diopter.

 

 

 

 

 

[Davide DB]

However, action cam (and other) technology is years behind smartphones that already have PDAF long ago and beyond.

[Nikolausz]

42 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

However, action cam (and other) technology is years behind smartphones that already have PDAF long ago and beyond.

That's the main reason why smartphones started to replace action cameras among beginner underwater videographers.

[Davide DB]

Imagine if a smartphone manufacturer would take only the photo subsystem of a top of gamma smartphone and put it in an action camera...

[Nikolausz]

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Imagine if a smartphone manufacturer would take only the photo subsystem of a top of gamma smartphone and put it in an action camera...

For a while I thought Xiaomi will be this brand. The Yi camera brand was somehow related/owned to/by Xiaomi, and when Yi 4K+ was released, in my opinion, it was a better choice than the actual GoPro for half the price. I still use two of them with modified lens, but the batteries are quite old. Unfortunately Yi  was separated from Xiaomi and stopped producing action cameras. I have high hopes for DJI, because they develop cameras and sensors for many platforms. They have everything under the sleeve to come up with an excellent action camera. It would be great if they could implement the 1 inch sensor with AF from DJI Osmo Pocket 3 to their next action camera.

[bghazzal]

Hear, hear!

I'm also placing my hopes on DJI - 1" with AF please -- overall, judging by the user manuals, the DJI seems more like the kind of product I would want (for shooting in flat) for an upgrade than the Insta360.

 

Speaking of the DJI Osmo Pocket 3, what's up with this product? looking into it, there's no underwater housing for it - is it just the shape factor, and DJI focusing the bulk of UW product offer on its waterproof action cam line?
 

 

Edited July 8 by bghazzal

[Nikolausz]

3 hours ago, bghazzal said:

Hear, hear!

I'm also placing my hopes on DJI - 1" with AF please -- overall, judging by the user manuals, the DJI seems more like the kind of product I would want (for shooting in flat) for an upgrade than the Insta360.

 

Speaking of the DJI Osmo Pocket 3, what's up with this product? looking into it, there's no underwater housing for it - is it just the shape factor, and DJI focusing the bulk of UW product offer on its waterproof action cam line?
 

 

DJI Osmo Pocket 3 is a gimbal with a small camera with good enough sensor. The gimbal is not needed in the action camera (difficult to design an underwater housing for it), so it's enough to use the core (sensor with AF function)

[Davide DB]

IMO DJI has the biggest technological advantage over its competitors. It has crazy technology not only in drones but also in gimbals and cinema cameras. I don't know if you have seen what the DJI Ronin 4D is capable of.
Maybe they assess that the market is not mature for such a technological investment on an action camera or... we will have news at the next production cycle.

[bghazzal]

Wow, indeed -  I wasn’t aware DJI had a cine-cam range... 😅
This is good, as there is an in-house link to more professional applications, spanning beyond that of the stereotypical action cam user-base. Let's see if this feeds into their action range.
 

Professional productions use action cams as backups, B/C cams and for dedicated application (the BBC /blue planet crew I saw in Palau in 2023 had GoPros setup for certain boat mounted angles, I think it was the GP5 and GP9), so DJI might be on to something if they ease up on the be-a-hero pov immersive-social-media angle and offer a more-rounded “rough-cam”…
 

That said, regarding sensor-size/focus I’m a little worried at how workeable AF would be on such a cam underwater (particles…) – seems perfect for correctly tracking a “talking head” like in the Insta360 clip, but it could also mean trouble in our less than ideal underwater conditions…

Edited July 9 by bghazzal

[Nikolausz]

51 minutes ago, bghazzal said:

Wow, indeed -  I wasn’t aware DJI had a cine-cam range... 😅
This is good, as there is an in-house link to more professional applications, spanning beyond that of the stereotypical action cam user-base. Let's see if this feeds into their action range.
 

Professional productions use action cams as backups, B/C cams and for dedicated application (the BBC /blue planet crew I saw in Palau in 2023 had GoPros setup for certain boat mounted angles, I think it was the GP5 and GP9), so DJI might be on to something if they ease up on the be-a-hero pov immersive-social-media angle and offer a more-rounded “rough-cam”…
 

That said, regarding sensor-size/focus I’m a little worried at how workeable AF would be on such a cam underwater (particles…) – seems perfect for correctly tracking a “talking head” like in the Insta360 clip, but it could also mean trouble in our less than ideal underwater conditions…

Maybe a real AF is not needed. It would be enough to have a zone focusing with 3 states (macro, close-up, infinity)